I'm on mobile, so this will probably come out short and staccato, like bad prose poetry. I'm thinking about approaching the wife to seriously talk about moving out of the country. I'll shout out to flagamuffin, wasoxygen, and WanderingEng because they showed some interest in my rambling post. kleinbl00, if you see these, I'd love to hear your brutally honest, fuck any ego or feelings I might have, ideas on this. This is mostly musings on my part and the chances of us as a couple actually doing this are honestly pretty low. At the same time though, neither of us have done anything big or exciting with our lives, and something like moving to another country is our chance to literally go big or go home.
So I've been musing about places to be and things to do and here are some thoughts that I've had.
Neither my wife nor I have completed college or have what are considered any strong marketable skills, so job hunting in another country might be a bit of an issue as would potentially securing work visas or whatever you call them. Maybe she could teach English as a second language, as she's smart and approachable. Maybe I could open up my own store, maybe general goods or maybe something that sells niche American goods, like comic books or something. I'd half expect any country we would look moving too would have an agency I could send out letters to, saying "Howdy. We wanna move to your lovely neck of the woods. Tell us what to do and how to find work!"
We both only speak English, but she knows a handful of Spanish and I know a handful of French, so if we move to a country with one or both of those languages and hopefully English speakers here and there, we could make by for a bit until we learn the language better. I think anywhere we go, at least one of the core native languages need to be Germanic or Latin based. I think anything else would be too steep of a learning curve, ramping the difficulty of getting by up to 100.
I think safety for us would be a huge concern and there's multiple ways we could find ourselves in trouble. For example, I know in a lot of South East Asian countries, the governments allegedly don't do much to protect the rights of foreigners. Similarly, one of my co-workers travels with her family all over the Caribbean and Central America and she says poverty and crime are a huge problem almost everywhere. For example, she said in Costa Rica almost every neighborhood had bars on their windows and in Jamaica, they were advised to never leave resort grounds for their safety. That's scary. Similarly, we wouldn't want to find ourselves the target of theft or burglarly. A lot of this risk could of course be reduced by moving to a richer country, say in Europe, but cost of living and our lack of marketable skills would come in play, making getting by a hard thing to do.
Cost of living would have to be something we'd have to look very carefully at. For example, a place could have super cheap rent, but if food prices are through the roof, we might find ourselves in financial trouble. Knowing first hand how rough it can be to live in impoverished neighborhoods, we'd have to make sure wherever we end up is both affordable and safe.
Shit. Lunch is up. Ran out of time. I'll get back to this tonight.
So... Like most decisions, this is one that isn't "a decision" so much as a series of things you can try on easily and simply. I was going to ping briandmyers because he's one of like six people I know that have emigrated to Kiwiland. I myself took a good hard look at Canada in 2004. Friends of mine were going to take jobs in Brisbane but opted out; since he had that very discussion with me, I'll share the way it went: Jill didn't like her options in her field in Seattle but her office had an opening in Brisbane. Jack asked me what I thought about it; he was madly in love with Jill but wasn't sure he wanted to follow her clear around the world. I told Jack that the smart thing would be to take Jill on vacation to Brisbane to see how they liked it. I mean, when you're talking about upending your life for years/forever, what's a couple plane tickets? It was the first trip Jack and Jill went on, and she was thrilled. Until she got to Brisbane. Her office, which ostensibly was willing to pay her a massive hiring bonus for moving, couldn't even really organize the time to have her meet everybody. She discovered that her pay package was much more diminished by taxes than she'd been led to believe, and the cost of living in Brisbane would have meant a massive real-wages paycut. And, Jack would have had to find something to do and Jill's company figured that was Jill's problem. More than that, they spent some time in Australia in general and decided that Brisbane was one of their least favorite places. However, Jack and Jill had a marvelous time and started thinking more about places they could go, things they could do, and what their future together looked like. That was 2007 or so, they've been married since 2009, have two adorable kids and live in Pennsylvania now. You'll note they didn't get as far as looking at visas - they just checked it out and noped the fuck out after having an awesome time. They ended up doing something different because of what they learned. And they did noting irrevocable or life-changing, other than committing to sharing a hotel room for a week. You're happily married. Your wife is your biggest fan. Spend some time over beer or wine with an atlas or something and come up with a list of ten places you might conceivably want to live. Look into the visa requirements for each one and see which ones are viable. Then arrange to visit your top choice for a week and see what you think. You're out a vacation, which you need one of anyway. Maybe you go somewhere awesome and decide to get gung-ho about it. Now you're going into it with eyes open. Maybe the first place doesn't work so you try the 2nd choice and spend the rest of your life thanking your lucky stars you didn't move to Brisbane. Maybe you visit your top 5 and decide you really like travel, but you also really like the great US of A. And by the way, since most of your flights are out of Dallas and since you actually really enjoyed your layover there, you decide to relocate to Texas. Hey, stranger things have happened. My big note of advice is that when you look at a momentous decision and try and figure out which way to go, you'll vaporlock and miss all the easy stuff. If, on the other hand, you investigate what you can get solved for free and little time, the whole mountain gets shorter. It's also fun. I mean, even looking up the visa requirements made the 2nd term of GWB sting less. Good luck and have fun.
kleinbl00 called me out because I am an American who pulled up stakes and moved to Budapest, Hungary on a whim, and stayed there for the better part of a decade. So here's the trick. Both of you become certified English as a Second Language (ESL) teachers for Berlitz. (Or get an ESL certificate.) Now you have a job anywhere you want to go in the world. You can walk into any Berlitz school and pick up a few hours a week. That will grow into more and more hours, and you will basically make a good college student-level salary. The key thing is that you will MEET AND LIVE WITH THE LOCALS. The big mistake that every single American thinks is that they have some sort of exalted way of life, or quality of life that is unmatched in the world, and that's just pure bullshit. When you make a college student salary in any other country in the world, you are making a living wage. It's basic, but you have enough money to do the basic stuff. And since you are not going to the American Tourist spots, you are paying local prices for your needs... food, clothing, etc. So you hang out in Prague for three months. Then you hop the train a couple hours south to Bratislava and hang there. It's cheap, and fun, and you love hiking in the hills, so you wind up staying for a year or so. Then you go to Budapest and do the same thing. Or maybe zip over to the Baltics for the summer, and live it up in Tallinn in Estonia, then beat it down to Croatia for the winter. Anytime you go anywhere, you jump on a train. You pay $20 to $90 to go anywhere. Or you find a RyanAir flight deal, and pay 20 GBP to fly to someplace crazy, like Morocco and chill there for a bit. English is everywhere. And there is nothing you can't do without some goofy pantomime, some broken English, and some good-natured foreigner. (The ONLY time I got stumped was when I told a guy I was from San Francisco, and he tried to ask about earthquakes, and I just couldn't get it. Then the tram came, we laughed, got on board, and he slapped me on the back and we parted with a hearty smile.) You and your wife are both good at something. You don't need a degree to prove it, but you will probably need a degree to get the right to stay permanently in any country. Fortunately, all school is free (and in English) in both the Netherlands and Sweden, so, shit... go there for a couple of years, enroll in school, get an education while working at whatever college students do there, and then go ANYWHERE. And, being professional Nomads is WAY EASIER THAN YOU THINK. Especially if you have each other. Because the only problem my nomad friends have, is they sometimes feel lonely, and want to share a deeper experience with someone else. You and your wife have each other. Here's the shitty part. This is incredibly fucking easy. You are going to agonize about it, and worry every detail, and make sure you buy exactly the right pack, and pocket knife, and notebook, and underwear... and you will travel for a week, and it will be stolen. And you'll never get it back. And you will have to wing it on the road, and scramble to replace things with whatever you can find, and there's no REI so you can't get those great socks anywhere, but there's this guy you met from Australia who told you about this place over in the Garment District of this city near by, and you can get there for, like... how much does that exchange to? Two dollars?... and you go, and you find things that work just as well, and you continue on your journey... and realize that YOU GOT THIS. Life can throw anything at you, and you don't even speak the language, but goddamnit motherfucker, I GOT MYSELF TO THAT NEIGHBORHOOD AND I BOUGHT MORE GODDAMN SOCKS!!! I AM A KING!!!! COME AT ME WORLD!!! And shit will CHANGE in your brain. And you will become a citizen of the whole goddamn WORLD, not just one dopey little country that thinks it's shit don't stink. And then you will look up and realize that it's been 4 years, and you could go ANYWHERE ON THE PLANET, and you get to CHOOSE now where you want to go. Your life is not dictated by keeping up with your high school friends, or whatever reality TV bullshit is driving the sale of those highwater pants, and you have friends you can visit in Perth, or Cape Town, or Minneapolis, or Hvar, or Berlin, and you travel, and see your friends... and then suddenly you have a job at a cool little startup in Barcelona. And then they want to give you an equity stake in the business, and then... hey... maybe I'll sell my motorcycle and stay in Barcelona. And then it's 7 years after that, and people visit YOU and wish THEY could do the amazing things that YOU AND YOUR WIFE have done, and how BRAVE you must me, and.... You will just shake your head at them sadly and vaguely remember when you thought that, too.
http://www.immigration.govt.nz/ I did this way back in 1998. Moved from Oklahoma to New Zealand. It's not too difficult to get a job here, and being American is a plus on that front. Downside is the cost of living (think Hawaii prices - everything costs more here than it does in the USA). The 'tyranny of distance' is the best and the worst thing at once. Upside is quality of life, and peace of mind. I've never regretted it.
Do it... I kinda miss not seeing the Big Dipper and other familiar constellations. Somewhat odd - in the North, you see Orion standing, or on his side, depending on time-of-year. In the South, he's either on his side, or upside-down (but it is one of the few easily-recognisable constellations you can see from either hemisphere).
Several aspects to this. From a personal perspective, the police presence is much less, and much less threatening. Our cop-on-the-beat does not carry a gun, and I think this makes a vast difference in the kind of person attracted to the profession. There's less abject poverty; we have poor people but the number of desperate poor is much less here - and that leads to less crime. We do have a lot of burglaries here, but other minor crimes seem much reduced. Also, a lot fewer handguns in circulation add to the general safety aspect. We have no dangerous animals to speak of as well. We don't have HFCS here at all (unless it's in US imports). We have better health care coverage and leave (full-time employees get 4 weeks minimum by law). Local dairy products, fruits and vegetables are great. Every tiny little place that serves coffee has an espresso machine and makes a great cup - it's hard to find places that serve old-fashioned 'filter coffee' any more. The weather is fantastic. The politicians aren't as corrupt. We have an MMP system for electing representatives that (in my opinion) is superior to yours (first-past-the-post), in that it allows smaller parties to wield real power. Kids here aren't afraid of strangers. I could go on (and I do!)
If you were to consider it, I would recommend sticking to the cities no further south than Christchurch. I live in the south, and there's noticeably less work around the place - so for a newcomer it might be a tad difficult. The main centres of Auckland and Wellington I imagine you would be absolutely sorted (although renting a house in Auckland is apparently becoming a nightmare!) And at the very least, I'll buy you both a beer upon arrival.
What I learned from living abroad for five months is that a) every benefit that a country has has an equal and opposite downside. b) you start to miss a lot of the small things that you take for granted (in my case, real Gouda on real bread) c) living somewhere is not the same as visiting some place. Not to say that you shouldn't try to pursue this. But be sure to put on your long-term glasses. Do you still like the place when the weather sucks, your commute is slow and you have to fill in yet another damn form at the municipal office? Because there's gonna be days like that, and on those days your old home seems impossibly far away.
a) The fear of losing steady, quality internet access would be enough to keep me home b) You're probably very much right about that. There are some things I probably won't realize I appreciate so much until it's gone. Hell, listening to kleinbl00 talk about the poor beer situation in the Pacific Northwest is enough alone to make me feel sorry for him. God. What if I move somewhere where the only option for beer is Tsing Tao? I mean, if that's the case, I'll have to learn to like sake. ::shudders:: 3) You are very much right. There are some places I don't mind visiting, but I could never see myself living there willingly. Though, at the same time, there are places where I think I would love to live, but I wouldn't see any reason to visit there for any length of time. Is that something you have to do often? What's so important that they make you fill out form after form. Not saying that this is or isn't the case for you, but since we're talking about forms, I've heard in some countries, like Southeast Asia again, bribes are often considered a bureaucratic lynch pin. I honestly don't know if that's something I could see myself doing.You have to fill in yet another damn form at the municipal office?
I think you'll like Nomad List then. You can sort by internet speeds, weather, cost of living and more. Not getting kicked out; social security; you being registered; not losing your new job, your driver's license, your insurance, your healthcare. To live anywhere for more a year or so often requires mountains of paperwork. You mentioned in your post that you want your life to be more exciting. I think that you need more than the desire for excitement to actually live abroad and not regret it, because there are enough bureaucratic roadblocks to curb anyone's enthusiasm. For excitement, go travel more. For a completely different life, go live abroad.What's so important that they make you fill out form after form.
What about things like books though? I personally moved across the Atlantic myself, and I think the biggest thing I miss six years later is my and my extended family's libraries. I love travelling, but I just can't see myself lugging my whole collection around :(
Dude. The ENTIRE WORLD has better internet than the shit we have here in the USA. I mean, I moved back to the US over a DECADE ago, and I still don't have the cell phone quality or signal that I had in eastern fucking europe just after the Soviet Union fell. Seriously. You go overseas and you will be PISSED at how shitty the IT infrastructure is in the US.
I can't stop marvelling at how much better Russian Internet access is overall: speed, cost, choice of providers (each with their own thing, many details shared among various brands), free Wi-Fi at places... The country that invented the Internet not being able to do good by their people is astounding.
Well, when you look at how capitalism works in this country, it makes sense that everything we do would suck. Because people get rewarded for cutting corners, and they make more money. They they use that money to fortify their position with lobbying and government contracts. And then they stop innovating because they have a nice, cushy defensible position. It's humiliating when one of my European friends come to visit. They pop open their phone and try to find a wifi signal... but they can't. Because the city doesn't provide wifi. So we go to a Starbucks. But they are in bed with ATT, or whoever, so you have to have an account and pay for their internet. And meanwhile the dude has been trying to check one thing in one app for, like, 45 minutes, but we can't get a reliable wifi signal anywhere... It's like I want to just go find a FAX machine and tell them to send a fax instead.... So embarrassing.
a) We're number 14! We're number 14! We're number 14! b) You've never had good sake because only every 20 years or so does the US bother to import it. For those couple-three years, though.... also keep in mind that decent sake is served chilled, like white wine, not hot. The reason Americans think sake should be hot is that's the way you hide truly shit sake, which is what most servicemen got during the occupation of Japan.
Do you have any sake brands you'd recommend? Some of the liquor stores around here are willing to entertain the idea of stocking weird stuff if you ask nicely. It's been a while since I've last had sake, but I think my biggest hangup is that the flavor is a bit cloudy, which doesn't describe it well, but it tastes a bit like you'd think cotton would taste like. So, not yummy.
I should have mentioned - I have blazing fast fiber at home, and just got it at work too. I don't know stats off the top of my head, but that ookla speed test? Pegs the needle on download, and nearly so on upload. But not available everywhere, yet.a) The fear of losing steady, quality internet access would be enough to keep me home
Here's what I get at work (at home it's faster) :
We do have good steaks here - and venison and lamb; and seafood of course; but what really shines is the bacon. OMG. There's many different types and they're all delicious. American-style bacon is called "streaky bacon" but there's also middle-bacon, shoulder-bacon, and a couple of other kinds too. "Spoiled for choice" is what we say here.
I googled, as I was unfamiliar with the term. I've not seen those here, but they look tasty. Lots of what we call crayfish around here though, in America we called them rock lobsters. Here's a dog fetching one:
Just from casual looking of my own, the only thing I have to say is that it looks hard as fuck to get a visa - you either need to have money or relatives in the country. I mean, until you look at the first step of actually following this process and see if you could even hope to do it, or not, then the rest of the hypotheticals can kind of just be ignored. You can't speak any foreign languages so you should limit yourself to places where English is either the dominant language or a large part of the population speaks English. Off the top of my head, that gives you England/the UK; Australia; New Zealand; wait i found a list. So then think about if any of those are places you'd want to live. Forget about cost of living for the moment and pick out like, maybe 5 favorites. Go check visa requirements for the countries. they will probably be pretty similar across the board. see if you qualify. I find that I can often figure out if I even really want to do something, or just like talking about it, if I look into what it takes to seriously execute the idea. so just do that. people have been ex-pats before. it's not utterly impossible, but i think pretty difficult. also yes so FYI general announcement guys; there are some things reddit is way better for than the community here. this is one of them. any super-niche idea, you can probably still find a couple hundred of people who have done it or are really into it on reddit. they've actually done and are passionate about the topic. so...don't forget to check there. (thinking of the 41 and homeless and $100k post, i wanted to refer it to /personalfinance honestly). anyway yeah it might be right or wrong for you but like check to see if it's really even an option first
Indeed, and if I decide to get serious about this, I'd check there among many other places. I'm just posting this cause I was bored at lunch, I like the musing of the idea, and Hubski as a whole is extremely intelligent and insightful, often to a surprising degree. Also part of the reason I'm posting this. Shit, if half of you guys said "Woah! Don't do it! You'll ruin your life!" I'd start to think, "Hmm. I guess Wyoming is more practical."also yes so FYI general announcement guys; there are some things reddit is way better for than the community here. this is one of them. any super-niche idea, you can probably still find a couple hundred of people who have done it or are really into it on reddit. they've actually done and are passionate about the topic. so...don't forget to check there.
I find that I can often figure out if I even really want to do something, or just like talking about it, if I look into what it takes to seriously execute the idea.
Well . . . a few thoughts. Since 2008, there has been a glut of English as a Foreign Language teachers (ESL is slightly different and only in the U.S., though other English speaking countries have equivalents). It used to be that a non-degree holding U.S. citizen could get EFL jobs that paid decently well, but because of so many shitty experiences, countries that look for EFL teachers or host EFL companies tend to be much, much more discerning. The typical EFL teacher will have a degree (usually at least somewhat related to English or linguistics), a CELTA certification or a TEFL certification from an accredited program, with at least 120 hours of study. Non-degree, non-certified, native English speakers still can find jobs teaching EFL, but they make much, much, much less money. Like, I worked with a guy who fell into that category, but who had some years of teaching experience who was making $12/hr, whereas starting wage for a TEFL/CELTA holder with a degree was $15.25. In any case, wages are down significantly from where they used to be as more and more people go abroad to teach, especially in places like SE Asia and the Middle East. There are a lot of great things about living abroad, but I would suggest that you seriously consider what your marketable skills are, or how you might leverage your experience into something that people elsewhere will pay for. There are working holiday programs in Australia and NZ (as briandmyers mentions) that allow people to work in Australia or NZ for up to a year. Now, that might not sound like what you're looking for, but as it sounds like you're not quite sure what you're looking for, perhaps it's a good idea to think of stepping stones that might lead to opportunities to help you and your wife figure out what you'd like to do. On a personal note, many countries have pocket populations of ex-pats who are just kind of . . . there. These types tend not to interact much with locals, or do much other than hang out with other ex-pats. I'm not at all suggesting that you and your wife would do that, but if you do live abroad I'd emphatically encourage you guys not to do that. Those ex-pats suck. Obviously I don't know you two personally, but from this post it really doesn't seem like you're so interested in living abroad given your concern about safety and limitations on the types of languages that you'd want to be surrounded by (although you are correct, "immersion" tends only to work in contexts where the language is not too linguistically distant from one's own mother tongue). In any case, what gets you guys excited?
I think if we did leave the country, isolating ourselves with a bunch of expats would defeat the whole purpose. You can't really be a part of a community if you don't try to actively interact with them and more importantly seek out their friendship and company. There are some definite roadblocks in our way that might make this all a pipe dream and I think it'll be important to take a real, honest look out ourselves and our motives for entertaining this idea. There could be so many other ways to fulfill those desires while still living here in the States, which is the safest of all bets. As for what gets our motors running? Collectively we both love to explore and discover new things. We have a love for good food, music, arts, and antiques. We both love history, she loves astronomy and physics, I love biology. I have my love of cars and comics, she has her love of crafts and video games, and we both appreciate the other's hobbies to a decent degree. We're not workaholics, but we both take our jobs very seriously. Lord Mercy. I think I married a female me.
Have you guys thought about getting a job at a travel agency? A few years ago I interviewed at a place that did "family travel adventures". The travel agency biz seems to be moving toward educational/adventure trips for families and retirees, but as an agent it would be part of your job to get a feel for the places you'd be sending/leading people on trips to and maintaining relationships with people on the ground. It might be a good way to dip your toe into getting out there.
We're not workaholics, but we both take our jobs very seriously.
remind me of your professions again? I'm sorry I've forgotten.
Yes it is! that has been the hiccup with every place where I've looked into immigration. I can second this. I remember watching mk spend like $6 or $8 for a single can of beer at a grocery store. A cheeseburger at a sit-down restaurant was $35. A really tasty vegetarian lunch was somewhere in the neighborhood of $20. I don't remember the figure... but I think one of your friends mentioned to me that part of the reason for the high costs had to do with the person working at Burger King gets paid a living wage. Go figure.Norway is wonderful.
difficult to move here without a job offer.
Everything is frighteningly expensive
but pay is commensurate with costs and the social services are extremely generous.
Ok, so you want to work out of the US. You don't have a degree, so that is going to make it tougher. "No marketable skills" is subjective and debatable but will be a barrier. This makes you goal tough, but doable. First, get a passport. That runs $160 per person or so, more if you want to expedite. Second, you need to assess what you own, what you owe and what you posses that you cannot live without. How can you sell your junk? How long will it take? What is it worth versus what are people willing to pay for it? Property will need to be sold, debts paid off and cash hoarded. How much do you have left? Debts are something you don't want to leave if you are moving to a country with an extradition treaty or reciprocal banking laws where your assets can be grabbed. That and being debt free is like +10 to mental health and you are going to need the lack of worry when you move. Once you have a Passport, start contacting embassies of the countries you are interested in and see what work skills they are fast tracking for visas. Canada, when I worked regularly in Canada pre 9-11, required you either worked for a Canadian-based company, were married to a Canadian or had a "high demand" skill/degree to get a work visa. I also had to sign that I was not intending to become a Canadian national to get my Visa, promise to not use my visa to buy property and sign a waiver that marrying a Canadian national voided my work visa. That has almost certainly changed since this was 20+ years ago. While talking to the embassy, schedule a vacation to their nation. Spend at least two weeks there, leave the tourist areas, find the expats, find the people hiring and see them in person to ask them questions. Can you as a non-national own property? What is it like renting property/homes as a non-national? What are the work requirements. What are taxes like (remember that as a US citizen you need to declare foreign income and file taxes as well). So, you went on a vacation, you got your shit together, and are ready to leave. Sell everything that you can't fit into a POD style shipping container. Open your bank accounts in banks that give you access in the country you are looking at. Have a shipping address, a place to lay your head, and go. The reason I say this is that you are not going to just up and move. I've a few liberal friends who threatened to bail when W got reelected then saw how hard it was, so they stayed in the US like all those people did. This is the hard point. Most ESL places I looked into way back in the day required a Bachelor's degree. Since you guys are young-ish, look at places in the middle of the country. Rural America is sort of like our own third world country where it is cheap to live and if you can find work you can have a great life for not a lot of money. Sounds like you need a change of situation, and that is not a bad thing at all. Rural Arkansas, Rural Ohio, Rural Illinois, Rural Kentucky are all starting to grow again due to call centers and auto factories. And they are still cheap to live in. And you can drive through them, eat lunch at a diner and have a nice conversation with the locals all for the cost of gas and no passport needed. There are some places like this within a 4-5 hour drive of anywhere in the USA. And you don't get the complications of extra-national living, language and culture. But if you are serious, get the passport. Save to travel somewhere, and go. Come back to this question when you get back and see where your headspace is.Neither my wife nor I have completed college or have what are considered any strong marketable skills, so job hunting in another country might be a bit of an issue as would potentially securing work visas or whatever you call them.
Letting go of what we own wouldn't be much of a problem. The big stuff would be easy enough to sell and the small stuff would be easy enough to give away. Debts are something that I don't take lightly and would not, under any circumstance, be able to handle hanging over my head. I literally would not be able to sleep at night if I knew I left a debt behind, both for moral reasons as well as the fear of having to deal with the financial and legal repercussions. So yes, handling any debt would be at the front of my mind. One of my friends married a Canadian and moved up North. He said before he could get his citizenship or whatever, he and his wife had to go through interview sessions with the government to make sure they were legit. He said at one point he forgot her birthday and started freaking out and the interviewer laughed it off saying something to the effect that it's the perfect sign that they were a legit couple. Yes, we will definitely visit, probably multiple times, any place we visit before moving there. We will probably also make sure at least one, if not both of us, have jobs lined up before leaving. Taxes'll be a pain in the ass. They always are. In all honesty, I've been harping on her for about two or three years now that we should move to a flyover state or some where rural as fuck. Probably not Appalachia, because they're having a hard time right now, and probably not one of the flyover states because they really are like a third world country sometimes, but I could see Wisconsin or Minnesota work out for me, and while I joked with _refugee_ about it in this thread, I really have heard nothing but nice things about Wyoming.
thenewgreen and I have soft spots in our hearts for the Mizz... it's a lovely city with much better weather than you would think. Oh... and... having spent plenty of time in Wyoming... the only places worth living are the ones that are as expensive as where you are now.
. . . what if my Wyoming goal is to live in a van, down by the river? It'd be awesome to have this as a backyard. Yes. Even in winter. Wool socks exist for a reason.Oh... and... having spent plenty of time in Wyoming... the only places worth living are the ones that are as expensive as where you are now.
if you're in to windswept plains with a horizon that just falls away into the distance..... you're a wyoming man at heart. I don't mean to trash WYO either... I love it. I just know I couldn't pull it off. It really is too cold, too remote, and too... I don't know... both times that I've seriously considered it, there just was something missing for me.
The remoteness is what gets me. I think rural New England is what I want. I'm certain I can find a house in Adirondack Park under $100k that's very close to a state highway, less than 30 minutes from I-87 and is about two hours from Montreal and Albany. That's the kind of remoteness I think I can handle.
I live 35 mins from downtown yet it is rural as all fuck here. The neighbors' windows are about 70 feet from mine. I'm five mins from the expressway; the entrance to said expressway has three big box stores, one in each quadrant, and if I want to not deal with that I drive 10 mins the the grocery store which has a better meat department. 20 mins in the other direction I can go to an Amish butcher and get better food than you can anywhere outside of a good restaurant for about what you pay at the normal store. Yet, there is a thriving art scene, lots of culture philanthropy, a good symphony, two decent colleges, several hipster-style coffee chains, tons of restaurants, and they just announced we have an unemployment rate of about 5.5% and are worried that there are not enough people to hire in the skilled positions that need to be filled. According to the Census Tracts, I live in the City, and am technically in the suburbs. My mortgage is, including escrow (taxes and insurance) $502 a month. Car insurance is higher here do to weather being a factor, and some utilities out here are more than I expected, notably electric. I'm not going to see any art movies in a theater, nor are niche music acts going to play every year. But my quality of life is so much better than when I lived in California, the commute is easier, there are places to go and things to do, there are actual honest seasons out here. If I was not in the Ohio Valley, I'd be looking at Upstate New York as well, as upstate seems to be the exact same place I just described, only in New York and not the Ohio Valley. I hate to sound like a paid shrill, but my opinion is that the coasts and the "hot beds" are becoming over rated and are ready to peak, then burst hard. Paying $72,000 a year to rent a two bedroom apartment is not sustainable. My house may only go up in value 2-3% a year, but I'm also not going to crash 30% like my parents will when the SoCal real estate bubble pops. I'm hoping more young smart people move out here to the second and third tier cities to help push out some of the ancient old people who don't want to deal with the world changing around them. And two people earning $25,000 a year ($12-13 an hour) puts you in the $50K a year category, or in better terms, over the median household income for Kentucky. Remove NYC and that is roughly the median for Update New York as well. A couple can live very well out this way if they are willing to.
That sounds pretty great. Where I am in southern Wisconsin, prices for land are pretty high. Starting at Milwaukee, it's high because you're close to the city, then it stays high going west because you're either close to Milwaukee, close to Madison, or sort of close to both. Suburbs are expensive, too. The closest I've found to something I consider affordable is an older part of town that isn't close to downtown. If I stay in town, eventually I'll look for a house there. In my exploring in Upstate New York, I think once you're that far from the coast the prices stay low. In December I stayed a couple nights in Newcomb, New York. I think this was a former mining town, but I'm not really sure. It's pretty much just buildings along the two lane highway. There were some cross streets, but I don't think there were any streets paralleling the highway. There was no Verizon or AT&T mobile service, and there was just one restaurant twenty minutes away that was open midweek. There's another only fifteen minutes away that's open weekends. It's very affordable, but that's because the economy is so weak. So while you might be able to buy a little house on a couple acres of land for $70,000, it's really hard to find much for work. I look at it as a retirement goal before being a place to relocate to. The Ohio Valley, though, has more work opportunities for me. I've probably turned my nose up at it, but now I'm not sure why. Each year it feels like there's less holding me to Wisconsin.
Montana is gorgeous. Missoula is a college town so you get the benefits from that with the Rocky Mountains, the Blackfoot River, Glacier National park only a couple hours away, Flathead lake. Some of the best hiking and camping in the US. Plus it's inexpensive. LOTS of people living "off the grid." Great music, art and food despite the seclusion. 
I've hear it's the faster growing startup city in America at the moment but then again, I heard that on the internet so it might be BS. I know a couple of my favorite YouTube people are based there, they say it's good value and a fun enough city where you can live really well if you make money on the internets.
I dunno, man. A favorite shooter of mine bought herself a piece of turf in rural West Virginia and built herself a solar cabin. Her lifestyle looks awesome. Buy this book and leaf through it. Then splurge on a subscription to Mother Earth News. See if that catches your attention - it's hella cheaper than moving to Singapore. Wyoming/North Dakota are in an interesting spot at the moment because they were fracking boomtowns but with oil as low as it is right now they're kinda fucked. I have sort-of family that headed out to one of the Dakotas and they love it... but the economy, from what I understand, is not one you'd want to move into at the moment.
Appalachia is a bit of a gamble, what with coal as an industry dying a painful death and lumber and steel not being what they used to be. The mid-west is almost as inexpensive as francopoli points out and probably has a better economic safety net, Detroit being a depressing statistical outlier. That book is going on the list though. It's a good thing summer is coming around, I'll be able to spend plenty of time outside catching up on everything you're recommending me. I don't know what the rest of the economy looks like out in the Great Plains. Regionally though, it's appealed to me a ton, if only because it has such a beautiful landscape. I half think francopoli should take some of his equipment out there for a vacation sometime for star gazing. The lack of light pollution from the cities coupled with a clear night would make for some great shots. An honest part of my unhappiness comes from city living and while I'd love to get away from it, I wonder if some place like rural Wyoming might be a bit extreme. On the other hand though, if I could find myself a decent paying job out there, it might be worth it.
The fact that you want to move deeper into the Flyover States indicates beyond a reasonable doubt that you should follow your heart, not mine. given my druthers...
Two weeks. Deadliest road in Canada to get there. Primarily because it's a double-yellow 2-lane for about 200 miles and it all looks like this And you have to break the speed limit because it's so fucking fun and then you swing wide into oncoming traffic and oops there's a logging truck.
Houses in Cincinnati are cheap. In a decent area of town you can get this house for about $500/month. You are still in a city with a good solid economy, 20 minutes from fuck all of nowhere, less than 10 hour drive to Phily, Chicago and Washington DC and can actually LIVE on two 24,000 a year incomes. Same for a lot of the Ohio River Valley. Tennessee is a bit pricier, but the economy is a bit more varied and if it exists and you can get good at it, you can find someone willing to hire you. The big cities out here like Louisville, Lexington, Indianapolis, Cincinnati have everything you can get in the big cities on the coasts to a pint but you can afford to live out here and follow some of your passions. You are not going to make 500K when you sell your house, but then again you are not spending 70K a year in rent, either. Good call. Awesome country, simply beautiful, but the people who live there are getting screwed by factors out of their control and the reality has not sunk in just yet. Appalachia is basically the same implosion of families, communities and politics we saw in the inner cities in the 70's and 80's only rural and in slower motion. Back in the '02-'03 dot bomb I got the chance to move out here and took it. I figured I'd wait for the job market in California to recover and move back. Turns out, my mortgage including escrow is $450 a month for an acre, I get paid enough to fully vest my 401K and I get to do the fun stuff that keeps me sane and happy. I'm serious about the whole "take a drive" thing. If nothing else it gets you away from home for a few days and allows you to reset yourself. And don't worry about venting, it helps to get this stuff in writing so you know where your head is at.Probably not Appalachia,
One of the best things about the Mid-West is how affordable it can be while simultaneously being convenient if you're able to make a few concessions. If we were to uproot and head somewhere else in the country, it would indeed be a major focal point for that factor alone. The wife enjoys random drives and I enjoy driving period. I'll see if I can't find a dog friendly hotel somewhere nice, load the two up, and go for a small trip.
Curious what brought the idea about? Having only lived in the United States I can't comment much on this, but what about Canada? I mean I know its the generic answer, but it seems like a possible middle ground: foreign (but not too foreign), safe, stable, and they've got that healthcare thing going for them. I'm not sure if you had plans to remain so close to the U.S., but it's a possibility right?
The idea? Pure musing. The desire for adventure. The longing to be a part of the bigger world and making a contribution to it. The chancenter to learn more about myself and my wife as individuals and ourselves as a couple. The lure and romanticism of the exotic. All of those things and more. Canada, while a safe bet and a cool idea, doesn't really offer a lot of that. It's like America version 2.1. So, it kind of doesn't count. Now, don't get me wrong, it's not like I hate living in America and want to bail out. I absolutely love this country with all of my heart. It is so rich and diverse, culturally and geographically and it has so much to offer. The idea though, of moving to another country, is like an adventure and a half.
Next weekend, put a full tank of gas in the car, drive in a random direction until the tank is at 3/4 empty, get a hotel room with the wife, find something lame and touristy to do and chuckle at, spend the night, have a nice brunch at a local-yokel eatery with the Sunday church people, and drive back. Whole "vacation" will cost you $200-$250.
humanodon as someone who has worked outside of the country, do you have any advice?
have you looked at peace corps as a way to dip your toe in the water?
Travel a bit more first then ask the question again maybe? The internet is only capable of telling you so much, and if you don't have a particularly strong pull to any one location, I see a lot of value in shopping around for somewhere you could feel at home.