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_refugee_




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_refugee_  ·  link  ·  parent  ·  post: Pubski: January 4, 2017

in this subthread: 95% men telling women that surely, the woman's wrong (and if she's wrong, exactly how terrible it's going to be for the man as a result, with the implication of oh how bad she should feel)

You know what I have learned from lots of years dating and not dating lots of guys? A whole lot of them will say whatever they think is needed in order to get the girl they're talking to to go home with them. I've had guys hit on me by telling me they're not hitting on me.

And everyone gets so hung up on informing the woman that surely, she was wrong, she's overreacting, she's misconstruing, that the real problem, which is that she felt really uncomfortable, (uncomfortable at best) gets completely glossed over.

It's real funny too that the woman goes "That was uncomfortable, I didn't like that" and prepares to dismiss the interaction for the most part but when a dude is involved, he goes "That was uncomfortable, his behavior was inappropriate, and I'm reporting it immediately to management."

_refugee_  ·  link  ·  parent  ·  post: Pubski: January 4, 2017

see reply to klein; i think there is probably less projection than the maximum which you fear.

_refugee_  ·  link  ·  parent  ·  post: Pubski: January 4, 2017

I really appreciate this comment because I think it helps me to understand some of the feelings I described from the very first post I made.

_refugee_  ·  link  ·  parent  ·  post: Pubski: January 4, 2017

His email expressed that he and I both felt uncomfortable after describing the bare facts of what happened. And yeah, I did feel uncomfortable when the guy in his 30s-40s, closer to my dad's age than mine, asked if my two-years-older brother was my dad. That was fucking weird, man. And my takeaway is that he was trying to hit on me, yes. I've said elsewhere that if similar happened when I was in my own I would not feel comfortable returning to that Goodwill alone. It's up to mgmt at Goodwill to decide what their tolerance is.

I'm not trying to be virtuous; I'm trying to be honest, and I'm trying to be me. Your friends' 11 year old, meanwhile, was being a vindictive bitch. How'd they turn out as parents?

Here's a story. There's a grocery store near me I've avoided for 10 years because when I was 16 a lifer bag boy took a shining to me such that if he sees me, like he did last month, he comes up to me, tries to start a conversation, and if I "was nice" and just "humored him" and talked back he would follow me around the store for my entire shopping expedition or until whatever manager responsible for him saw what was happening and sent the guy away from me and back to work. I don't want to talk to this person. He's just as creepy as the guy at Goodwill. Actually, creepier, because I know I'm not the only girl he focuses on like that. Mgmt there deals with that by being a little more attentive and pulling him off of the customers he fixates on, getting him away from them and back to work. Funny how it always happens to be the cute young female customers he wants to make friends with, though, not anybody else.

Acmecreep still works there. Yeah, I got to run into him like twice last month. Once he came up behind me and stood there for 15 minutes while I used the change machine. I can hear it now: "He was probably just on his break!" Yeah, that's a nice coincidence.

You know how you were a kid once and you played "Not touching you"? You'd all gang up on someone and get as close as possible and chant "Not touching you, not touching you, not touching you!" And then when the kid was like "STOP!" you all were like "We're not doing anything!" and fucking rioted with laughter? How do you go about telling the special 40 year old who's a lifetime bag/cart boy to leave you alone when technically he's not doing anything? Just standing there six inches behind you doing nothing. Just watching you. When you turn in his direction you can see him straighten up and try to catch your eye.

What I do is I go to different fucking Acmes. What a great solution, right. At least cartboy's not fired, I guess that makes me virtuous.

Better call that a/c man because your anecdote just got burned right back. Kind of feel like goodwill is more like acme than Jesus camp when it comes to retention methods but hell, what do I know?

_refugee_  ·  link  ·  parent  ·  post: Pubski: January 4, 2017

Frankly I'm in the middle of it and don't know what to think about it.

I suspect men are hit on less than women. I think when you're not hit on a lot, it's much harder to recognize and also much easier to doubt another person's claim that they were getting hit on.

Honestly, I wouldn't be going around talking about how this dude possibly hit on me at Goodwill, in any capacity, except for my brother - first, obviously, his involvement. But beyond that, AKA a large part of why I'm confident in "He was hitting on me" territory, is because my brother was there, an observer who wasn't a participant in the conversation but saw the whole thing, and he independently came to the same conclusion about the guy's behavior as I did. I didn't get into the car and say, "Aw man, that guy just hit on me, did you see that??"

As for whether I'm mistaken - I don't think it matters as much as you think, what his intention was. The road to hell is paved with good ones. If I came up to you and got handsy with you because "You looked like you needed a hug and I wanted to make you feel better," that doesn't give me a free pass on intruding your personal space and touching you if you don't want me to do that.

You can always say I didn't intend to do that; it's real easy, in fact, especially afterwards. Kind of like "I'm sorry." You can say it all you want. It doesn't change your actions or the impact of them.

_refugee_  ·  link  ·  parent  ·  post: Pubski: January 4, 2017

well ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ look at me, the person in the situation who is literally not responsible for any of this happening, and doesn't have the magic ability to read men's minds and stop them from saying (or typing and emailing) whatever they want to, to whomever they want.

At the end of the day, Goodwill doesn't care about me so much as they care about their disgruntled customer. As evidenced by the fact that Risk Management told my brother they'd like to call and discuss this with him further. Ain't nobody ask for me. I could be fiction for all they know.

GW sees ruffled feathers; they'll soothe ruffled feathers. If they were worried about the law or the paper, I think they'd first at least ascertain my existence. I feel like if they were going to fire the guy, even, it would be due diligence to get my version - not fire a guy based on another guy recounting what the first guy said to the other guy's sister.

And if they're going to fire him for "no cause" aka really hearsay, which means going through the trouble and expense of hiring someone new and burning the time to train them, AKA impacting their bottom line and all that corporate shit, well fuck. They'll fire anyone for any reason then.

I haven't seen any headlines about Goodwill being trigger happy, have you?

_refugee_  ·  link  ·  parent  ·  post: Pubski: January 4, 2017

See my response to thenewgreen; ask yourself, if you were trying to make small talk, why of all things would you ask a question of a woman which seeks to determine her relationship to the man she's with, as opposed to, I don't know, the weather? The holidays? How much you like their car, or chocolate, or anything else but?

_refugee_  ·  link  ·  parent  ·  post: Pubski: January 4, 2017

So, he was trying to determine my relationship to my brother.

Can I ask you, if you were interacting with a guy and a girl you'd just met, what are the circumstances in which you'd want to know what their relationship was? You'd want to know if you wanted to know if the girl was single or not. You'd want to know if that guy was her boyfriend because you wouldn't want to try to hit on someone in front of their boyfriend. And let's drill down even more and get real specific: when would you ask the girl what her relationship to the dude was? Why? Cuz he didn't turn to both of us and go, "Oh, you related?" That's ok, if awkward, small talk. But he ignored my brother, and he asked me.

If I were alone, it'd be "Hey, you got a boyfriend?" But because I was with a guy, who might be that boyfriend, (who might get an attitude if he thought GW was hitting on his girl in front of him, or whatever) the inquiry went a little subtler.

Maybe you're saying, "If you look really similar, I could see a stranger asking if you were related!"

Yes, but then why did he say "Dad" instead of "brother", which would be the obvious choice if he thinks we're related due to how close in age we are?

I'm just throwing this out there, how many times has a stranger asked you how you know the person you're hanging out with as an attempt to start a conversation? I'm willing to bet the answer is "never."

It's certainly a fucking awkward choice for small talk, though I guess if you want you can suggest that the guy simply is socially awkward (after all, we'll never know) and his remark was totally innocent, if completely weird. Then why wouldn't he ask both people a question both could answer? If we're going back to "he's fucking awkward," that's fine, again there's no way we'll ever know, but what percentage of the population is that fucking awkward?

Is he that fucking awkward, and also so bad at guessing people's ages that he could legitimately mistake a guy two years my senior, who doesn't have gray hair or a beard or wrinkles or any of the marks of even middle age, for my father? I mean, even if he is bad at ages how young could he possibly think I was - 16? - even then, to have a 16 year old kid you're going to be like, 36. Minimum.

He wanted to know if my brother was my boyfriend. But if he said "Is he your boyfriend," it would be even more stunningly obvious that he was trying to hit on me. He probably knew it would be inappropriate. So instead he blurted out the next platonic role a male might have in my life, "father."

______________

It's a potential lawsuit because if the employee has a history of customer complaints/acting inappropriately, and Goodwill has been informed of incidents like this and knowingly ignored them, they're liable for his pattern of behavior which starts to look more like sexual harassment with every additional woman he's sexually awkward to. It's a potential lawsuit if he's got a history of this pattern of behavior, as evidenced by background checks or similar, and Goodwill hired him and put him in a situation to continue it anyway.

It's a potential lawsuit because employers are liable for the behavior of their employees, particularly when they're on the job, and definitely absolutely if they've been alerted to that behavior before, or time and time again.

If a customer feels an employee behaved inappropriately towards them, I guess the most correct option is to raise to management and let them decide. It seems that's what they're doing here.

I feel like if I were an employer, I'd want to know if a customer felt uncomfortable. If it was spurious I could dismiss it. if it was small, maybe I wouldn't address it right away - but I'd at least have a little heads up there might be a problem down the line.

____________________

Honest answer: I hate getting hit on, especially by strangers, certainly by strangers who work at Goodwill, and definitely by people who I am forced to interact with repeatedly in the future (who I can't avoid because I have to go to the places they work) regardless of how I receive their advances.

Don't hit on someone who will be forced to interact with you in the future because they go to your establishment for business purposes. You're just making it fucking awkward for everyone. It's rude.

Again, I'll reiterate what I said to flag: this is a weird experience for me because I am so not a part of what is occurring as a direct result to how I was treated. On the other hand, if I were alone and went to that Goodwill and the guy asked me if I had a boyfriend, I wouldn't want to go back there for quite a while without someone else along. Because it would feel weird and I wouldn't like that attention.

I don't mind talking to strangers. But when a stranger hits on me, someone I've never talked to in my whole life before, I feel gross. When someone who doesn't know you hits on you, it's not a compliment - they literally don't know a thing about you, let alone whether those things interest them. Think about it. "Hey, it's me, a total stranger who felt so compelled by the symmetry of your features and the size of your bod that I couldn't leave you alone to do whatever you're out in the world doing without intruding upon it and making my attraction to you known!"

Now, there's flirting. If you're cute and you're subtle and there's a reason for your interaction, you can flirt with a stranger. But that reason should be something like "She dropped all her groceries and I stopped to pick them up" or "He grabbed the last Coke Zero right when I reached for it!" and flirting is done with no intention. A flirt understands he will probably never see you again, and that's life, but in this moment you're kind of cute so he wants to make you smile. He doesn't care if you have a boyfriend because he's not trying to date some stranger he ran into in the produce section at Acme. He has a life. He has a way to meet women. Or she, whatever.

Too long, and full of fucks, and ranty. But as a woman, I know a guy hitting on me when it happens. And the thing I know just as well as "getting hit on" is "guys telling me I wasn't getting hit on because the person wasn't literally telling me he wanted to date me."

Conversation has two levels; Text, subtext. The text of his question was "Is that your dad?" The subtext was, "Are you single? I'm interested."

_refugee_  ·  link  ·  parent  ·  post: Pubski: January 4, 2017

So, I actually haven't talked to a single person employed by Goodwill. This experience is interesting and somewhat surreal for me because, although I'm the "victim" here, or the target, or at least the person around whom everything happened, I'm an absolute bystander to the escalation. They haven't even asked to speak to me.

I'd be shocked if the guy lost his job from this. It's pretty hard to fire someone for cause. A one-off like this might be a verbal or written warning, but unless he has a history of customer complaints or other issues at work against him, he's not going nowhere.

_refugee_  ·  link  ·  parent  ·  post: Pubski: January 4, 2017

Well, here's a weird story.

My brother, home for the holidays from Portland, and I went to our local Goodwill donation site to drop stuff off for our family. We've done this frequently over the years, though him obviously less so since, you know, Portland. He's two years older than me. We're both in our twenties.

There were two guys there at the site to help us unload. They were large, and about as appealing as you'd expect of them, them being humans employed by Goodwill to perform menial labor, not really talk to people, and certainly not to count out change accurately or show you where housewares are with a smile. It went basically fine until the end.

OK, it went basically fine if I ignore how every time I tried to pick up anything and take it to the shed they took it out of my hands before I got three steps out, while mostly letting my brother lift and walk any things he pleased. Don't you know that women can't carry things? Including pillows. But hey, not having to carry things is not something one usually gripes over.

But then as we walked back to my car, the larger, more sadly-straggly-bearded lump asked me: "'Zzat your dad, helping?"

I was puzzled. Quite, in fact. I scoped the whole parking lot for some man anywhere who might be mistaken for my dad. My first thought was that there must be some brown-haired, older man in a car just down the lot or something who I hadn't seen, who looked vaguely like me.

"What?" I asked.

"Is he your dad?" the troll said. This time he gestured towards my brother. "You know, your dad, or, or, or something?"

"Uuhhh, that's my brother," I said to him. He had a gap in his front teeth and his eyes were cinched in the middle by his cheekfat. And, at 300 pounds, employed at Goodwill, and (I did the mental math) quite probably living in his parents' basement, trying to hit on me.

__________

My bro and I talked about it as we drove off. We agreed it was weird, gross, yuck, just inappropriate. The funny thing was that I had kind of shrugged it off by the time we got around the block. Because gross men hit on woman all the time. Because I've been asked that before, repeatedly. Because "it just happens."

My brother went home, got drunk, peeved, and then he emailed the head of HR for our area Goodwill. That head's a she, by the way, which encouraged him as well. At least when you tell a woman about a guy hitting on you she doesn't try to say you're being too sensitive, or that you're arrogant.

She got back to him at 6 am the next day. And now he's talking to someone in their Risk Management this week. He's keeping me posted and I'm at least curious. Could be a lawsuit, I guess. I bet all it'd take to get a lawyer interested in a story like this would be Goodwill, ignoring that email. (Not that I'd go to one. I told you. I'd written it off.)

_________________

It's weird. I'm interested to see how it progresses and also agree that that employee shouldn't be hitting on chicks half his age while he's on the clock at his job.

But I can't help but notice, and think it's funny, that this is happening because my brother saw and got pissed off and escalated the situation - so in a way, I'm weirdly voiceless, and a guy's standing up for me because another guy was disgusting, and while this is about women and gender and stuff like that, our MCs so far are 3/4 men. And certainly, I guess, is the hero.

_____________

Hey, don't they say that if you're white and see a black person get discriminated against it's your job to speak up because you have the power, because you're the majority, because you have the privilege? That could be the angle here. That probably is.

But still. It's weird.

At least he's not getting me kicked out of bars for calling the bartender pregnant anymore, I guess.

_refugee_  ·  link  ·  parent  ·  post: Pubski: December 21, 2016

Merry Christmas, hubski. Lmk if you can even see this

I love this!!

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