I've been doing some research on Ayuhuasca spiritual practices, as well as reading about personal testimonies to the general experiences had while using the drug (and other drugs with the DMT compound). If anyone here has taken this drug, can you describe the experience?
UPDATED:
From anthropologist Thomas Roberts book review of "The Antipodes of Mind":
Shannon identifies 11 structural parameters of consciousness and some of the unusual values they can take:
- - Agenthood — experiencing thoughts as not being one's own
• Personal identity — personal identification with whatever one is looking at, a sense of unity with the other
• Unity — being oneself at the same time being someone or something else
• Boundaries — erasing the boundary between inner and outer reality
• Individuation — self transcendence but with consciousness still maintained
• Calibration—change in perceptions of one's size, weight, posture, etc.
• Locus of consciousness —consciousness located outside one's physical body
• Time—variations in time, including itsspeed or even feelings of eternity
• Self-consciousness—a "residue"of the normal self after other facets of consciousness are completely altered
• Intentionality — no object to which thought is being directed and no content entertained by the mind, often leading to a sense o f t h e Void" or"pure consciousness."
• Connectedness, Knowledge, and the Conferral of Reality — a noetic feeling that one is privy to true knowledge.
Interesting notes from William Benzon in his review of Antipodes:
- This is the kind of question that drove Des-cartes: How can you tell that the scene before you is real, rather than being a phantasm placed in your mind by a malignant being? The prob-lem is that there is nothing in the visual field that serves as a reality indicator. You cannot, for example, look to the lower left visual field and see flashing lights indicating reality status: one light indicating real perception, two lights indicating a dream, or three lights indicating a hallucination. Perception is not like that. One just knows that things are real, immediately and surely – and sometimes wrongly as well. Simi-larly, the ayahuasca voyager knows that the world of her visions is real, immediately and surely. Thus the sense of reality would seem to be an elementary sensation rather than the out-come of a sophisticated inferential process. Of what could such a sensation possibly consist?
And from Gregory Nixon's review:
- ʻAyahuasca leads people to the conclusion that the world
contains both good and evil, that the two are intertwined, and that the ultimate reality is beyond good and evilʼ, but that, ʻFinally, there are visions in which one feels one is encountering the Supreme Goodʼ (p. 174). I realize Iʼm probably not getting the mystical paradox here, but elsewhere itʼs said that Ayahuasca has a cosmic sense of humor (not always benign), that it lies or hides as much as it reveals. Is the Supreme Light without shadow, or what?
I've taken a few tryptamines with DMT compounds in them and also some other THiKAL substances. They're all the same, really. If you've tripped one you've tripped them all, it's just a matter of detail. RCs have become fairly easy to acquire if you're willing to deal with bitcoin so go ahead and try a bunch if you're interested, tryptamines are among the safest drugs considering the dose-response curve. The most difficult part is confirming what you've got is actually what you were sold, but they sell kits for that. I liked 5-MeO-DALT the best for recreation, it was very visual, shimmery, reminded me of paisley. Easy to control, nice and brief (compared to psilocin). It wasn't very popular because it was kind of mild and the RC community is big on tripping hard, but I've heard some other similar compounds are gaining traction. For introspection I preferred good ol' psilocybin or the 4-AcO-DMT analogue, both of which metabolize to psilocin. Easy to produce yourself in the case of the former, or easy to consume in the case of the latter. A lot of people worry about having a "bad trips" going into a psychedelic experience, but in my opinion, "bad trips" are the best trips. They force you to spend a lot of time self-analyzing and breaking down yourself and your problems. Some of the best decisions of my life have come out of "bad trips". People who just dip their toes and avoid the stressful experience in favor of some pretty colors are missing out.
100% agree, but not every person has the mental awareness to handle that experience. "bad trips" are really difficult to get through; many people are absolutely terrified of relinquishing any type of perceived control over their reality. It's part of my continued hesitation to even touch DMT. A lot of people worry about having a "bad trips" going into a psychedelic experience, but in my opinion, "bad trips" are the best trips. They force you to spend a lot of time self-analyzing and breaking down yourself and your problems. Some of the best decisions of my life have come out of "bad trips". People who just dip their toes and avoid the stressful experience in favor of some pretty colors are missing out.
I have a hard time understanding people who can conceive that mental awareness but do not possess it. Surely the leap isn't that great. Bad trips inevitably end. The drug runs its course. Yeah, maybe it seems like forever, but even if you truly believe you are lost you're still going to come back eventually. It's not like we have control over reality anyway. You said "perceived control" so maybe you understand. Think of it this way: you have more control in the creative state given by psychedelics than you do in the numbed state given by alcohol, or the normal state of sobriety.many people are absolutely terrified of relinquishing any type of perceived control over their reality.
For me, it's a matter of working on the things I realized/accepted about myself before I push myself deeper. Like checkpoints. I tend to only trip when I feel like I need some internal guidance or to refresh from dealing with the default world, which isnt more than a couple times a year.
Interesting. When you say "they're all the same" do you mean that you experience the same types of sensations? Do you feel the experience to be a spiritual one?
Yes, I was really wondering about this. I read Hell and Back by Kira Salak (apparently a National Geographic classic) and became quite nervous about the loss of control. However, what surprised me in the narrative was that Salak was determined to "go back" after a "bad trip" and wanted to revisit what she was experiencing. She wasn't necessarily scared of it, just a little embarrassed around strangers. What have you learned from your "bad trips"? Here is an excerpt from the Nixon review re: "bad trips":A lot of people worry about having a "bad trips" going into a psychedelic experience, but in my opinion, "bad trips" are the best trips. They force you to spend a lot of time self-analyzing and breaking down yourself and your problems. Some of the best decisions of my life have come out of "bad trips". People who just dip their toes and avoid the stressful experience in favor of some pretty colors are missing out.
Unlike with LSD, there are said to be no ʻbad tripsʼ with Ayahuasca.
Shanon admits he interviewed no one who drank the turbid brew but once, which would surely be the result if anyone ʻfreaked outʼ or was just turned off by the whole experience. The nausea, gastritis, and vomiting, emphasized in other first person accounts, may be enough to cause one to avoid the substance next time, but actual ʻmind-blowingʼ has not been reported, to my knowledge. Shanon makes it clear that when faced with a personal crisis under the intoxication one must soldier on, dealing with fear and related negative emotions in as grounded and unperturbed manner as possible. Still, crises occur: ʻQuite commonly,ʼ he states matter-of-factly, ʻpeople feel that they are about to dieʼ (p. 57). Elsewhere he notes that a mental breakdown is real possibility. Yet not in Antipodes or anything else I have read to do with Ayahuasca experiences is such a breakdown recorded. Is it bad-trip free?
so, in reply to both of your comments: i'm an athiest and not a spiritual person, so i don't think of tripping as spiritual, though i understand that's a common framework in which to approach the experience. it was always clearly a drug-based experience to me, not spiritual in any way. i see psychedelics as chemical tools to create cathartic/epiphanic mental situations that enable me to resolve certain kinds of problems. psilocin in particular has been the most useful one in the toolbox. for me, the core of the experience is the disruption of self that comes at peak, the dismantling of concepts as i approach the peak, and the clarity afterwards. everything outside of that is just flavoring. maybe someone who enjoys these things more recreationally would disagree. no trip is "bad", it's either more or less intense, and you can appreciate it or not. it will be colored by your thoughts and emotional state. you will dismantle yourself. the things that weigh on your mind most heavily will be the focus of attention. you can either find value in examining your contradictions, or hate the revelation of your hypocrisy. but there's always something to learn, and the most stressful trips have the most important lessons to teach. this might just be my weird perspective. i'm pretty masochistic, overanalytical, have tendency toward detachment and dissociation, and i'm capable of looking back on some straight hellish experiences with an eye for the benefits. maybe most people can't do that. actions inspired wholly or in part by my trips: seeking help for medical problems i'd been ignoring, coming out to my family, ending a relationship that had gone on too long, entering the most important relationship of my life, ending my drug addiction, and some more important things that i won't write here. ending my drug addiction required abstinence from all drugs, including psychedelics, so i've sort of moved past all this. it was a useful tool for a while but eventually i reached a point where i had to leave it behind.
I've smoked DMT concentrate once. I don't believe it was the 5-MEO compound, but I'm not 100% certain. Smoking DMT is rightfully referred to as "the businessman's trip", as you're there and back again within 10 to 15 minutes. Keep in mind, that's 10 to 15 minutes of regular consciousness time. Time dilation and distortion was absolutely at play during the trip. I experienced the usual kaleidoscopic, geometric visuals, and was left with a strong sense of spirituality and conviction, and an overall appreciation for life. None of McKenna's elves though. Everyone's trips are of course unique and different, but most people don't have bad trips when smoking the substance. It's too brief for reflection. I do recommend it, but only to the somewhat-seasoned psychonaut. Now, my friend did orally ingest ayahuasca, and his experience is more or less spot on with the "effects" description in the wikipedia article. We gave a bucket for his vomit, which was employed near the climax of his trip. We asked "are you OK?" as he hurled, to which he replied "I'm fan-fucking-tastic!!", with a shit-eating grin on his face. Feel free to ask me specifics about ayahuasca/DMT, I'll do my best.
Thanks for your reply. Do you know of any of the specific differences between smoking DMT and drinking ayuhausca? (i.e., why are there different experiences?). When you say you gained a "strong sense" of spirituality, what actually caused this? Was it specifically a personal moment while on DMT? Was it an entity or feeling or shape/colour? Was it any of the following: 1. Bursts, puffs, and splashes of colour. 2. Repetitive, multiplying non-figurative elements. 3. Geometric designs and patterns. 4. Designs with figures. [Figures are vis-ual elements that look like things, plant, animal, human, and so forth.] 5. Rapid figural transformations 6. Kaleidoscopic images. 7. Well-defined, stable, single figurative images. 8. Proto-scenes. 9. Full-fledged scenes. 10. Interactive scenes. [The visionary has limited interaction with things in the scene.] 11. Scenes of flight. [The visionary is fly-ing over the scene and has a subjective sense of flight, though he or she is, in fact, immobile. One may become trans-formed into a bird.] 12. Celestial and heavenly scenes. 13. Virtual Reality. Does the spiritual feeling stay with you today? Has the experience changed you in a long-term positive way? Also, have you read The Antipodes of Mind by Benny Shannon (apparently the most extensive scientific treatment to the subjective account of ayuhausca)? Or any of the professional reviews? All essentially claim it is a modern science classic: - Gregory Dixon's review - John Horgan's review What do you think of Graham Hancock's "The War on Consciousness"? I've never quite read anything like the literature surrounding ayuhausca. It seems like an actual potential avenue to learn about deep aspects of consciousness that needs to be explored rigorously and scientifically. As one of the reviewers stated (I think Nixon), Benny Shannon's book gives one the feeling that you are reading a work akin to Darwin's On the Origin of Species as it is a data driven analysis of a something that is literally Terra Incognito (at least to science of course). Thanks again for the response.I've smoked DMT concentrate once. I don't believe it was the 5-MEO compound, but I'm not 100% certain.
I experienced the usual kaleidoscopic, geometric visuals, and was left with strong sense of spirituality and conviction, and an overall appreciation for life.
The rate at which dimethyltryptamine transcends the blood-brain barrier is faster when smoking the pure extract, and thus the exact neurochemical reaction is different from orally ingesting the stuff. The uptake may be entirely different, and not dependent on rate. There's probably little documentation on this, since scientific studies of most psychedelics are (hilariously/unfortunately) banned. Well, that's the question, isn't it? It's almost like someone has just given you conviction, or levied purpose onto your shoulders. Not in a burdensome way, but in a way that makes you want to... stay alive. To achieve. To make the most of what you've got. Like many aspects of psychedelics, it doesn't translate well into sober-speak. Personally, I am strongly under the impression that all of this results from neurochemistry, perhaps identical to the same neurochemistry that can arise from performing religious rituals en-masse. When I went to church as a kid, I knew people who would get legitimately Jesus-high. Maybe it was social anxiety, or maybe I was always too logically oriented for religion, but Jesus never did it for me. DMT? Well, yes, I got the sensation of what I would dub "spirituality", but I only harbor the conviction that it was the result of chemistry. Does that make it less "real"? Not at all, it just implies that it's likely neurochemically-based, and also entirely subjective, which brings me to... I was the only person that imbibed the stuff on the occasion, but I would bet that if it was taken amongst a group of people (say, like, on an ayahuasca retreat) that you would share some elements of a "trip" together, but at the same time have entirely different experiences... if that makes any sense. I have taken other psychedelics with friends (and strangers), and although you'll have the same external stimuli to respond to (your environment), how you yourself react and process the information will of course always be unique. Rarely/never will you have two people that both hallucinate the Jolly Green Giant rising out of the river and eating the treetops on the far shore like broccoli (crude example). Synesthesia, man. Your brain fires neural patterns completely outside of its normal networks. It's beautiful, frightening, enlightening, but perhaps meaningless, all at the same time. I've come to model the brain like a filter: imagine reality as a liquid stream of information, with your brain like a sieve, but you can move the grid around, like on a tennis racket. You might pinch some strings together, impairing your fine motor skills, but at the other end of the racket/sieve, you've opened a wider area for brain function in an area you previously were bandwidth restricted in. Although I didn't experience an entity, the feelings are hard to describe... which is a little frustrating. The conviction and purpose I mentioned earlier is just one little sliver of an entire ocean of inklings, emotions, and everything in between. Some do experience an entity or deity, and I have as well, though not in my one and only DMT experience. In that vein, I say, the brain is a powerful thing; it can fool itself beyond it's own wildest dreams. 1. Bursts, puffs, and splashes of colour. Oh god yes. I tasted the rainbow, and there weren't any skittles involved. I smelled rotation. I saw the bitter, plastic taste of DMT smoke. Again... synesthesia. Sure. If you want to have some real fun, look up username "MescalineBanana" on deviant art. Pull some of his fractal-based art up on a screen, and watch it idance for you. On other substances, I have seen Mayan-esque art in carpet. You know, how carpet gets randomly pushed every which way from foot traffic, and the light side and dark side align differently? My brain has made that into sensible, patterned geometry while tripping. I have found many psychedelics to be similar in the way that my visual perception is changed, although there are certainly some differences. Geometric designs and patterns are usually present, and become more prominent to me with increasing dosage. My friend (the one I attempted to bring into this thread) draws little doodles to this effect, certainly influenced by his experiences as a psychonaut. He prefers psilocybin, hence why his alias is "vegenaut". He only drew one quadrant of the artwork on that page, and patterned it, obviously, but you will notice how... Mayan... it looks, for lack of a better word. Everything is constantly morphing. Everything. All the time. This increases with dosage for everyone. Yep, especially when you close your eyes. Closed-eye visuals were the most stunning on DMT, but on other psychedelics they were usually quite impressive as well. Not so much, truthfully. In fact, most things have a fuzzy glow. Your pupils are pretty dilated. Oh, and while I'm thinking about it, make at least some effort to steer clear of mirrors. I'm unsure what this means. Again, unsure of the definition. Not really I've never experienced this personally, but it's not uncommon for psychedelic experiences. I have had a few times where I've dreampt of something like this, and guess what. When you're dreaming? That's a little dose of natural DMT. Yeah, but not in the angels and demons sense of the term. No Renaissance-ish stuff. More like glowy, hazy, bright (yet cloudy), and with feelings of ecstasy at times. Side notes: I've never really had a "bad trip", but there have been times when I've felt pretty heavy-hearted. The ego death aspect of tripping is always strange and uncomfortable, but it's nice after the ego has been stripped away and you get to decide who and what you are all over again, consciously, without really letting anyone else tell you what to be. Research "ego death", if you haven't done so already. Nah. Reality does feel pretty strange, but not like... Tron... or "cyberspace". If you want to rephrase this, I'm not sure I'm interpreting it entirely correctly. A bit. It's kind of undergone an exponential decay as time goes on, but it's an interesting proposition that renewing the feeling is as easy as dosing up again. Does this "convenience" diminish the significance? Not really, at least not to me. Of course, I have a notoriously pragmatic way of "getting it done", in general. If nothing else, it is an incredible insight into the mechanisms of one of the most complex systems known to man; our own minds. Not so much with DMT specifically, but with psychedelics in general, YES. I wouldn't be who I am without some of the insight I was given both by the introspection on the substances, and the people who were similarly interested in learning about altered states of consciousness, and interested in learning in general. In fact, let me take another paragraph to touch on this: psychedelics should be treated as a tool, as a means to an end, not the ends in and of itself. If you're taking them to get fucked up, sure, you'll achieve that. But if you're taking them to attempt learning about yourself, about your environment, or you're looking to approach a problem from another angle, I applaud you. Generally, you will find at least some of what you're looking for. The mindset and mood in which you embark on a trip is just as important, if not more so, than your environment. That said, theadvancedapes, you are an ideal candidate for psychedelic experimentation, IMHO. You approach things scientifically, skeptically, but with a healthy dose of enthusiasm and optimism. I have not read any of the works you have referenced, but I will at least take a peek, if nothing else. Thank you for linking them. It's been a while since I've taken psychedelics, but I'm not closed to the idea. I have always appreciated what they've had to tell me... or what I've told myself while under the influence, if you'd rather phrase it as such. I apologize for the delay of this response. I've just relocated apartments, and do not have internet configured yet. Thank you for your questions, I look forward to any updates or additional questions! :)Do you know of any of the specific differences between smoking DMT and drinking ayuhausca? (i.e., why are there different experiences?).
When you say you gained a "strong sense" of spirituality, what actually caused this?
Was it specifically a personal moment while on DMT?
Was it an entity or feeling or shape/colour?
Was it any of the following:
2. Repetitive, multiplying non-figurative elements.
3. Geometric designs and patterns.
4. Designs with figures. [Figures are vis-ual elements that look like things, plant, animal, human, and so forth.]
5. Rapid figural transformations
6. Kaleidoscopic images.
7. Well-defined, stable, single figurative images.
8. Proto-scenes.
9. Full-fledged scenes.
10. Interactive scenes. [The visionary has limited interaction with things in the scene.]
11. Scenes of flight. [The visionary is fly-ing over the scene and has a subjective sense of flight, though he or she is, in fact, immobile. One may become trans-formed into a bird.]
12. Celestial and heavenly scenes.
13. Virtual Reality.
Does the spiritual feeling stay with you today?
Has the experience changed you in a long-term positive way?
I tried searching for some evidence for this, but I was not able to find anything reliable. People were discussing if its true that DMT is produced endogenously, a review of the literature suggests that it is true - PDFWhen you're dreaming? That's a little dose of natural DMT.
You're right... I was citing some "knowledge" I acquired almost a decade ago, assertions which were poorly sourced. Googling this now doesn't lead me to any reliable citations. Hah, if it is indeed true, we've made every human being a felon. DMT is a Schedule I substance in the United States, so if we're naturally producing it in our bodies, even if in minute quantities... welp, see you in prison, buddy!I tried searching for some evidence for this, but I was not able to find anything reliable.
People were discussing if its true that DMT is produced endogenously, a review of the literature suggests that it is true - PDF
I have also read (somewhere) that DMT is produced in higher concentrations when a person is close to death. While nobody can really explain why this happens, it is interesting. Specially when you keep in mind that LSD and Psilocybin are used to treat death anxiety in people with terminal diseases...
I personally haven't taken ayahuasca, but I've smoked a lot of DMT and done a lot of research into both. The very fact that the DMT takes it's full effect and subsides within about 10 minutes gives the trip a greatly different character. There's simply no time to get to know what's happening to you before you're fully under the influence--it's like being shot out of a cannon.Do you know of any of the specific differences between smoking DMT and drinking ayuhausca? (i.e., why are there different experiences?).
Response pending in ~8 hours from the time of this comment. somethingsomethingworkdaysomethingsomething
I want to eventually try, but am still not willing to surrender myself to that experience yet. Several friends have done the Ayuhuasca ceremonies and they all basically fall in line with what's already been said. There doesn't seem to be any inconsistency or exception to the experience that I've encountered personally or that has been logged by others on the internet. It's a very very powerful experience not to be taken lightly. That said, the Ayuhuasca experience is a different beast than the simple smoking of DMT (which anyone with sense can synthesize pretty easily). Smoking DMT is a short and completely immersed experience (~30min give or take.) The full Ayuhuasca experience can be like 12hours and you basically come in and out of "wherever the fuck it is that you go." What I can speak on that interests me particularly about the Ayuhuasca experience is the perception of "default reality." If other Hubski member have used psychedelics, science says what's happening is just certain chemical/electric interactions in the mind causing funny stuff, but when you're in that space it appears that science misunderstands what's happening completely.
This is really what has surprised me the most. The uniformity of experience is striking. It seems to center around an internal mind battle between evil-good; with good eventually prevailing. The most plausible explanation to me (of course, I haven't tried it and so who cares what I think) is that this is a representation of the natural internal dynamics of the human mind represented in a post-language framework. It makes sense to me that the human mind battles with its own existence and self-worth but then eventually comes to a realization that infinite creativity/good is, in the end, attainable. I think Terrance McKenna said the essence of what you find is "love" or "the ultimate aesthetic/beauty". In the Benny Shannon book he claims it is eternal creativity. Similar things... both "art-related". Well said... I think the key from the experiences I've read is that you are in post-matter, information-based reality. Or in the words of Ab-Soul in the song "Pineal Gland" (a song about DMT): "I'm in a place where matter don't matter, just spirit molecules and geometric patterns."Several friends have done the Ayuhuasca ceremonies and they all basically fall in line with what's already been said. There doesn't seem to be any inconsistency or exception to the experience that I've encountered personally or that has been logged by others on the internet. It's a very very powerful experience not to be taken lightly.
"wherever the fuck it is that you go."
when you're in that space it appears that science misunderstands what's happening completely.
I know we're trained as Engineers and Scientists to avoid absolutes, but Love is absolutely essential to the continued existence of humanity and it's a truth that billions refuse to take seriously. Yeah, it's something you begin to experience on low doses of mushrooms and LSD. When reality starts to break down from definite forms to abstract stuff, thoughts included. In this space, thinking/thoughts aren't an action but like a reception in the same way you feel heat you "think" thoughts. I have not worked out how to explain the idea, but I'm pretty sure someone already has. I think Terrance McKenna said the essence of what you find is "love" or "the ultimate aesthetic/beauty". In the Benny Shannon book he claims it is eternal creativity. Similar things... both "art-related".
I think the key from the experiences I've read is that you are in post-matter, information-based reality. Or in the words of Ab-Soul in the song "Pineal Gland" (a song about DMT): "I'm in a place where matter don't matter, just spirit molecules and geometric patterns."
Yes, it is arguably the thing holding everything together. By far and away the most powerful emotions I've ever felt have been in deep love and while experiencing orgasm. Of course, that does make sense from an evolutionary perspective, but I'm definitely open to the possibility science has yet to fully understand a whole range of phenomenological experience. I think Alan Watts described this in a similar way, along the lines of "trying to express what cannot be expressed." In his final interview, McKenna said that the realm was "un-englishable".I know we're trained as Engineers and Scientists to avoid absolutes, but Love is absolutely essential to the continued existence of humanity and it's a truth that billions refuse to take seriously.
In this space, thinking/thoughts aren't an action but like a reception in the same way you feel heat you "think" thoughts. I have not worked out how to explain the idea, but I'm pretty sure someone already has.
I suggest the following podcast with Joe Rogan and Amber Lyon, http://castroller.com/podcasts/TheJoeRogan/3982435, it's very long and they talk about a lot of stuff, but they happen to talk about Amber Lyon's seven Ayahuasca trips
Ive taken quite a few different psychedelics and I like many of them, but I have to say, while there are certainly some commonalities, ayahuasca is special. I like to tell people that ayahuasca is like the opposite of alcohol. With ETOH, first its fun and enjoyable, and then you puke, then you feel like crap for a day or so. With Ayahuasca, first it's disturbing and uncomfortable, then you puke, then its glorious, beautiful beyond description, and you feel great for days. It is quite common with psychedelics for the come-up period to be a little disorienting and uncomfortable. This aspect is dramatically increased with ayahuasca. Almost every time I start thinking that something has gone wrong, the batch was poisoned, and Im going to die. The mental aspects during this part of the trip are also quite distrubing. They do feel evil. You feel as if you are being invaded by some really creepy entities. Puking is more or less avoidable if you extract the active ingredients from the plant matter. That is a lot of work, and some people think that puking is an integral part of the experience. These days I prefer extracted chemicals. Then the sky clears, and it was all worth it. No other psychedelic offers visuals like this - when I saw it for the first time, I thought: "ah, this is what I always thought acid was suppposed to be like." But of course tripping is never really just about pretty stuff to look at. I often find that during this phase there is a tendency to confess one's life. Its almost like a truth serum. And, as I said, you feel great for days. People tell you that you look younger. I dont know any other drug that does that.
I've smoked n,n-DMT several times at varying doses, and the effects described above really vary on a sliding scale from dose to dose. While many hallucinogins offer similar effects, I still note variability between it, LSD, psilocybin, mescaline, and whatever awful active compound is in salvia (salvinorin A, apparently). If I recall correctly, as far as mechanisms/experiences go, the difference really is that Ayahuasca is root bark containing DMT combined with a vine that has a MAO inhibitor, which otherwise degrades n,n,-DMT rather quickly, prolonging the experience. I've heard of a few people taking a MAO inhibitor and smoking it, but only in a "friend of a friend" way. That sounds intense. When doing a larger amount, there is a complete suspension of the self to the degree that applying a taxonomy of symptoms of the effects afterwards feels totally foolhardy, at least to me. Like, the perceptual distortions are not a succinct product of a particular mechanism, so it feels, but more so just complete alien sensory experience that is sort of outside normal description. For instance, yes there is time dilation and calibration abberations, but these are absolutely taking backseat to the fact that you have just exited your body (not literally, as in a out-of-body experience where you are still aware of your physical existence), consciousness and everything you felt at least some degree of comfort inhabiting and are lost in the stratosphere for 15 minutes or so. For me, the best way to describe it is in subjective, descriptive terms, and in comparison to other hallucinogens, as they really are a experience that is only understood by actually doing it.
Out of curiosity, what didn't you like about salvia?
I actually did for a little while, but it is just very grating and intense so it got old really quickly. a couple friends had a really really bad time with it, so I hesitate recommending it to anyone.
It's the only hallucinogen I've ever done (easy to get, convenient if you only have like twenty minutes to spare), so with nothing to compare it to, I just kind of take it as the baseline experience. Did it with my druggie friend one time, though, and he seemed to hold your position. Said it was too intense, swore never to do it again. Funny, because I find it really relaxing. Each their own. Your response makes me wish I'd had the opportunity to try other ones, though. Ayuhuasca is sounding pretty great from this thread...
I pretty much observed 3 general reactions to salvia: 1) nothing. 2) laughing non-stop about nothing for 10 minutes straight 3) actually affecting you in a typical hallucinogen (albeit more harshly than other), ranging from freaking the hell out to calm euphoria If you're still on this earth, you've still got time, just try to aim for reputable sources, though that's easier said than done. However, if you're straight-edge or sober, don't let all this talk lead you astray!
Hah, not straight edge or sober- do have a family, though, which kind of disqualifies me from day-long vision quests. Maybe if at any time I get a weekend with friends or something.
I see, foolish to apply any concepts at all? Beyond concepts? Could you describe them on a continuum of evil/good ; negative/positive? Or is that irrelevant too? Does Alan Watts do justice to the experience in this video?When doing a larger amount, there is a complete suspension of the self to the degree that applying a taxonomy of symptoms of the effects afterwards feels totally foolhardy, at least to me.
For me, the best way to describe it is in subjective, descriptive terms, and in comparison to other hallucinogens, as they really are a experience that is only understood by actually doing it.
| I see, foolish to apply any concepts at all? Beyond concepts? It feels like a constant stream just poring over you with completely unique experiences every second. I could hardly claim any thoughts to be "my own" (I mean, of course, they totally belonged to my mind in some regard) but, like I said, your awareness is just out the window in regards to how you experience your everyday life. There isn't a competent metaphor/analogy/allegory for how your mind is working, so I think that's why a lot of people focus on the direct sensory stuff when describing it. I want to say something like "salvia is totally more negative than DMT, but they are very similar" but honestly, within the spectrum of experience that is contained by ingesting a hallucinogen, salvia was more harsh than DMT, but not necessarily negative. I have to start an assay, but I will watch the video during my lunch break and get back to you.
In that Watts video he describes it as not "hanging" on hang concepts. For example, humans construct many symbols that "define them". But in this realm trying to "conceptualize anything" is like trying to "catch water with a sieve" in his language. And then when you learn not to "hang out any concepts" you are in the "void". And then you have to learn to "void the void"; according to Watts.There isn't a competent metaphor/analogy/allegory for how your mind is working, so I think that's why a lot of people focus on the direct sensory stuff when describing it.
I think that's an accurate description, my personal inclinations are to strip away the woo-woo language that Watts always uses, though. Up to the "voiding the void" part, yeah, that's as accurate as you're going to get without trying it for yourself. There's definitely some burners I know that trip waaaay too often (and it shows), maybe that's what he means by saying "letting go of the void"? Like, not trying to regenerate some sublime experience that is dependent on particular circumstances or something? I dunno, I think if someone is searching around in stuff like DMT, especially since they are so much more well-known nowadays, they're looking for something in general, and hallucinogens offer a vague enough notion that something major has happened in you, not to you. There's also Doors of Perception by Aldous Huxley, he experimented with mescaline loooong before it was the pop culture thing it is now and he didn't have much background besides folklore to go on. I read like 10 years ago though, so it may not be as good or thoughful as I remember. 16 year old me says go for it, though!
Yeah, I feel you on the burners who have tripped a bit to often in search of something or an experience. People who've gone that way seem to insist that whatever is happening has some sort of expected script and experience. I think they're the ones being referenced by the idea of being trapped in the experience and not experiencing any further "voiding the void." I don't want to sound like I'm making any definitive claims, but that's the best I can do to articulate it. Like that recent story of the CNN reporter who recently went through an experience. In her story, she mentions the sort of stereotypical super hippie/burner female and how the shamen confided in the reporter that she is unable to make progress because she is insistent on what the experience should be and entail so there is no revelation for her, but illusion. Up to the "voiding the void" part, yeah, that's as accurate as you're going to get without trying it for yourself. There's definitely some burners I know that trip waaaay too often (and it shows), maybe that's what he means by saying "letting go of the void"? Like, not trying to regenerate some sublime experience that is dependent on particular circumstances or something?
Scientific American writer John Hogan suggested this as well - so I may have to add this to the book collection. Thanks for your thoughts, all of these comments are so interesting and thoughtful.There's also Doors of Perception by Aldous Huxley
By doing research, do you mean watching the Joe Rogan podcast?
No, I mean reading the small literature that does exist on the topic, specifically the book by Benny Shannon I linked in an above comment. I haven't listened to the Joe Rogan podcast.
Ah, good. That podcast is relatively popular and most people that have mentioned DMT, Ayuhuasca or Peyote to me have heard it through JR. It's not profoundly intellectual so I'm hesitant to suggest taking time to watch it, but you could quickly google/youtube 'Joe Rogan DMT' and see what comes up. edit: on a sidenote, comedian/legend Joey Coco Diaz frequents that show and he is a character; I believe JR, Coco and Doug Stanhope did shrooms together before one podcast and smoked weed throughout the 3 hours. Y'know, if you're into that.
This in no way has anything other than entertainment value, but I remember recently hearing about Ayuhuasca when Robin Quivers mentioned it on the Howard Stern Show. -She did some sort of spiritual tourism in Peru. It all sounds very Don Juan.
I somewhat share your sentiment, and understand where you're coming from, but I have to disagree on the basis that drugs letting you think differently (or rather, causing) has the ability to alter your worldview permanently, which may or may not be beneficial. I think, it may also have the property of allowing you to approach problems differently, not necessarily correctly, but they certainly allow for out of the box thinking.
I don't think I was clear enough in my comment. What I meant was that the link I provided was entertaining but not terribly educational. As for drugs in general, I think they can be both entertaining and educational depending on the drug and how they are approached by the user. From what I have read, Ayuhuasca sounds incredibly interesting and if I didn't have so much to potentially lose, I'd try it. First I'd like to get theadvancedapes feedback post consumption.
I think I'm going to plan a retreat. I have a suspicion that it is connected to post-language and the world of cultural replication that I described here. And therefore a type of window into the post biological landscape of conscious experience.
Have you read the Don Juan books by Carlos Castaneda? Based on your objective here, I would highly recommend reading them. He was a cultural anthropologist that trained as a shamanist under a yaqui indian named Don Juan. Much of his work has been highly controversial and most discredit it, but it makes for one hell of an entertaining read. I would be shocked if they didn't try Ayuhuasca during his apprenticeship. I appreciate your approach to this and your hypothesis seems interesting and plausible. I'd like to find out if you are able to "study" the trip given that it seem so elusive to description. Keep us informed.
FYI Jay Courtney Fikes, an anthropologist, investigated Castaneda's work and concluded that he had based the character of Don Juan upon Ramon Medina Silva, a Huichol shaman. He outlines some serious shortcomings in Castaneda's depictions of the yaqui as ciphers for the Huichol and concludes that: "he [Don Juan] is more allegorical than actual". It certainly doesn't stop one from enjoying the books but it's worth reading Fikes work alongside. Title: Carlos Castaneda, Academic Opportunism And The Psychedelic Sixties.
Yeah, even back in the 1990's when I read the books I was aware that the scientific validity of his research was questionable at best. But you're right, it's worth the read, if nothing else, for enjoyment.