Further, it's a white man's internet because it's a white man's world.
When thinking about your online experiences you should see this reality taking shape. Think about the comments on youtube. Think about any thread in a popular subreddit. Think about the comment section of your local newspaper. At any moment a KKK rally might spring out of any of these environments.
I've been spinning this idea around in my head for a few days; why are white men in America so fucking angry?
We'd do well not to pretend that things are different than they are. Donald Trump's success in the polls has shown us something: a lot of white men are angry.
They're angry at mexicans and they're angry at women. They're angry at a Big Government that ostensibly serves the interests of minorities and women, exclusively.
What is fascinating in all this is that we, collectively, don't talk about it very much. White men in America have a monopoly on anger.
An angry white man is a leader.
An angry black man or arab is dangerous.
An angry woman is emotional.
These are stereotypes that you can see in the world. What is a negative stereotype of an angry white man? There aren't any. We dissect out negative stereotypes of the angry white man; there's the angry redneck, the angry conspiracy theorist, or what have you, but note the distinction: all angry black men are dangerous; only particular angry white men are a problem.
When brown-skinned terrorists attacked the twin towers we threw out the bill of rights. When white-skinned terrorists blow up a federal building, or shoot up a public space, we ignore it. It doesn't matter how often it happens. "They were broken. There is nothing wrong with white men, or white men's culture. These people are the exception."
And so we don't talk about it. Gun culture and fear of government are part of what it means to be American. We can't have a meaningful conversation about gun culture or fear of government because it would mean we'd be having a conversation about something we cannot discuss: the problem of the angry white man.
I asked earlier "why" and proceeded to say nothing about why. I think that you can guess why.
Why did the south collective commit treason?
Why does this picture exist?
Because leveling the playing field is a zero-sum game. A woman's right to vote comes at the expense of a man's vote being diminished, and so it follows for the rest. The position of the white man is a position propped up by injustice, historical and contemporary. An attack on injustice is a proxy war on the white man.
When an angry white man talks about "social justice warriors" he is laying his mind bare to you; justice is necessarily a war on white men because that is who injustice serves.
I'd be remiss to leave out the economic elephant in the room: the angry white man is all the more angry because privilege is delegated by class as well as race and gender. That the angry white man should blame other angry white men for his economic woes is something that doesn't occur to him, amazingly.
But enough.
Here on our friendly little hubski we've not done half bad; when the angry white man came for our community we said "go back to reddit." Well, we've done better than most, but it wasn't without some casualties. If we'd decided to have this conversation sooner, maybe we wouldn't have lost what we did.
This is easier than you think: white men won. When you're the majority you get to set the baseline. Your behavior is "normal" behavior. That's the very definition of privilege: my house, my rules. In America, for now, white men are the baseline. Therefore, anything a "normal" white man does can't be deviant. Sociopolitically speaking, white men will continue to define the norm well past the point where we're a minority. We've run things for so long our entrenched power structure will kick along for generations. As a result, the gains of any minority must either be granted by the majority or taken from them. Pity the poor white man. His great grandmother probably didn't expect to vote when she grew up. His great great grandfather may have owned people. Now here he is, surrounded by signs in spanish, men kissing men, female CEOs and doctors with Indian accents. His star is on the wane. Are you surprised that he lashes out like a cornered animal? I grew up with "fags" and "niggers" and "gooks" and "chinks" and now we've got gay congressmen, a black president and Bruce Jenner's a girl. I think it's fuckin' awesome... But if I weren't evolved, I'd be terrified at the rate of social progress.
And that, right there, is why I'm such a hellcat about getting more women in stem. Tech is our communications platform, it's the way we interact, it's vital in shaping the modern world. Yet once again, we are building a platform by white men, biased toward white men. I want to shorten the cycle. Let's not do another hundred years of this.
And hey - as a general rule of thumb, women have better attention to detail. My wife graduated magna cum laude with a degree in Math. She was a software architect for a major multinational insurance firm. But she bailed on that and went into medicine 'cuz she wanted to, you know, help people. Are you saying the platform itself is inherently biased toward white men? Or are you saying that the presence of entitled white men creates a bias?
I don't think it's biased toward men inherintly. It's what I love about programming, the absolute simplicity of binary, the beauty of the baud. Ones and zeros can't be evil :) But I think people are much better at thinking of scenarios relevant to them, so the products tech companies make tend to have a bias toward men. It wasn't built to be that way, we used to have 30% women, hell the first programmer was a woman. But today those numbers are a lot worse, and I don't want that bias to cement. If we get enough representation for women and minorities soon we can avoid creating a more permanent heirarchy. It's interesting you mention why your wife left. Tech has a bit of an image problem in that regard. I've done lots of work with young girls and the idea that tech is a selfish profession is probably one of the top reasons they avoid it. Of course that becomes circular, the more people who see tech as selfish, the more it attracts money grubbing brogrammers, who then perpetuate that idea. It's one of the many things we need to change if we want to close the gender gap.
I don't know if it's even as complicated as a race/gender difference. It's really just a "tech-oriented" vs "non-tech-oriented" problem. I'm on computers 80% of my day, and I have been and will continue to be; I grew up on them and my job revolves around them. My girlfriend is an art major, she only uses computers when she has to. We can look at the same piece of software and I intuitively have ideas about how to use it and how to access the settings and features I need. This "makes sense" to me and seems like the only "right way" to organize information. She disagrees and explains why and that makes sense too. But that software was designed by people like me without a thought to people not like them because it's hard to comprehend how someone wouldn't just get it, why it wouldn't just be intuitive to them.But I think people are much better at thinking of scenarios relevant to them
When you have an industry with as little diversity as tech, it decidedly is a race / gender difference.
I completely agree that techies have trouble understanding scenarios for non techies, but the discussion was about the lack of women in tech and contributing factors (unless you think women are non-tech-oriented, but I don't think that's what you meant).I don't know if it's even as complicated as a race/gender difference. It's really just a "tech-oriented" vs "non-tech-oriented" problem.
And not just better attention to detail, but a wholly different perspective. I'm working on forming a company right now, and we needed some help with a particular aspect. One of the guys suggested a woman he knows who had expertise in the particular area (nothing related to any gender specific knowledge), so we consulted her. She was into our idea, so we brought her in as a partner. I never considered her "a woman", but rather "an expert" (which I still figure is a decent default in business). But then we were having dinner the other day, and discussing marketing strategies. We were discussing potential customers, and our limited capacity to imagine things beyond our experience was laser focusing the few of us dudes on guys just like us. She spoke up and said, "Wow, I have a totally different idea of who would be interested," and proceeded to expand our potential customer base by an order of magnitude, specifically because she was thinking from a woman's perspective. Big lesson on my end.
http://obdc.com/diverse-companies-make-more-money/ In my experience, companies with a diverse workforce tend to be the best places to work. Gender is an easy metric to measure, as is race. But there are others too. My favorite teams have been ones that don't expect men to all behave the same. They allow room for something other then the hyper-aggressive self promoting type, and as a result people are happier and more confident in their work. I really believe there is financial value in creating that type of place.
I sometimes forget these things, because I'm a scientist, which is one of the few fields that really doesn't seem to care about race and gender (yes I'm aware of the gender disparities in the highest levels of leadership). My wife, on the other hand, is reminded all too often that she's "a girl" in a man's world, as she works in the car business. It's messed up. You know how many women design cars for GM (exteriors, that is)? One. (There were two but one just got bumped to management). And GM is the progressive one of the Big Three. As far as I'm aware the number is zero at the other two. Women are close to half their market, and they include functionally no women in design, which is one of the most important aspects for selling cars. (It made the news this year at the Detroit auto show that Nissan was showing a car for which the lead designer was a woman--that's how backward the industry is.) If any of the companies could get past the idea that cars are for boys and minivans are for girls (although they're still designed by men), they could make a fuckload of cash. But that's not how it works. I don't know how she does it.
What was the car? cuz all the ones on this list are reasonably cool.
I think that these types of cars are not much more than showpieces for the companies. Is anyone in their right mind going to buy the new Ford GT? I've seen exactly one on the road and I live in the area of the world where there are more expensive American cars than anywhere. I think the company thinks there's some cache in showing that they can put something on the race track and compete. I don't know if they're money makers even at that price, but even if they are building one has to be about more than per car profit like the average car is.
Well, they do a few things. Brand recognition and cache for one. They're also a great way of showing off developmental technologies that eventually trickle down to luxury and then every day cars. If you're going to spend years and millions of dollars in R&D, you gotta show it off from time to time. Right?
I've seen three, and a friend of a friend had one. They exist, they're just tricky to find. Shit, I've seen Lexus LF-A's in traffic 'round here. Fiskers in the parking lot. F'n Audi R8s parked on the street. But then, I live in a stupid place. The original NSX wasn't a crazy thing. I'd see them semi-regularly. Of course, for the money you could buy two of them for the price of the new one, even accounting for inflation. That said, it's definitely a halo car.
Yes you do. I used to think that an M6 was a rare beauty to ogle over until the first time I visited LA. They're like cockroaches there. I had the pleasure of riding around the English Midlands in a DB9 a few weeks ago. That was fuckin' fun. I can't see the pleasure in driving a car like that in LA. I think it would piss me off more than anything, knowing that I get to use like 100 of the 600 hp the car offers. Just makes you look lie a douche....I live in a stupid place.
True story. Was over at CBS Studio Center to do some filling-in on X Factor. And we all pile into a 15 passenger van ("pass van" in the lingo) and we're waiting to leave, and there's a guy in a Ferrari California pulling in. And he's not holding us up, and he's not making us wait, and he's abiding by all the rules, and he's just fucking parking, fer chrissake, and the camera guy next to me says "douche." And we all thought it. All 10 of us. We didn't know this guy and for all we know he got the Ferrari as an award for everything he'd done for Habitat for Humanity. But the fact of the matter was, he was a middle-aged dude, in a Ferrari, and he was a douche. An irredeemable douche. He had spent upwards of $200k in order to create a visceral negative reaction from total strangers. And I think that's not the way it's supposed to work. Hollywood has cured me of my love of exotics. The fact that I can hop on my bicycle and go rent a Gallardo for $150/hr (from three different shops!) isn't liberating, it's discouraging. 'cuz what the fuck are you going to do with a Lamborghini for four hours in Los Angeles other than front?
I guess you can put a weirdly optimistic spin on it. If you corner a rat it will turn around and fight like hell. Maybe this surge of bigotry is the rat knowing it's cornered. But we'll see. The political policies have tangible outcomes. The race back to the middle ages is going to fuck up women's lives. Getting murdered by militant police ends lives, but it also influences how other people live their lives. I don't think we really know yet what abuse on the internet does to people. What effects do toxic internet communities have on people and culture? I guess we'll find out eventually, but I don't suspect we'll like what we find out.
Is there a surge of bigotry right now? There's certainly more video evidence of bigotry, which is welcome sunlight on the bacteria, but I don't think it's a stretch to say that bigotry is at an all time low in the US. Go watch The 40 Year Old Virgin. There's a scene where Paul Rudd and Seth Rogan are insulting each other back and forth with gay jokes. That was a mere 10 years ago, and I doubt the same joke would be funny today. The default insults when I was in school in the 90s were "fag" and "retard". I don't know how kids pick on each other today, but based on the frequency I hear those words now--and the scorn they normally draw--I have to assume that times have changed. There's certainly a long way to go, especially with racism against black people specifically, but I think there's an awakening to their plight, not a surge of bigotry. We see a lot more of it, because people care more now, so it makes the news. I would say that things look bad, because they are, but heightened awareness can only make it better.Maybe this surge of bigotry is the rat knowing it's cornered.
I think with some things it's really hard to tell. Has police brutality hit a new local maximum? I think so. I also think that that local maximum is a lot better than the global maximum. So there are two different things going on; the long term trend has been good and the short term trend has been bad. A lot of people say that police brutality has always been a reality for black people, and video evidence is simply bring it out into the open. I'm inclined to believe that this is true, but I think additionally things like stop and frisk and similar policies in the last 2 decades have made these problems even worse. Basically 2 decades of politicians gunning for Tough on Crime policies has given us exactly what you'd expect. So it's both. Long term things have gotten better, but we've taken a bad turn. As far as the rest of the surge in bigotry, I'm not confident one way or the other. With respect to gay rights, I think you have to think of things in terms of separate domains: policy, public opinion, and religious ostracization. In terms of policy, gay rights has made absolutely staggering progress. In terms of public opinion gays have a small majority in support of civil rights. The religious right is absolutely boiling over with hatred, but I don't know that that is any different than it was since christianity came into existence. So, overall, there isn't a surge here, so much as a sustained religious ostracization in particular religious circles. Within Christianity, broadly, your garden variety christian has moved pretty far in the direction of acceptance, but I wouldn't want to be gay in Alabama. As rinx and tla have pointed out, women haven't fared well in recent years, but we'd do well to remember the historical context; things have been shitty for women... forever. That notwithstanding, the last decade has seen a rise in anti-woman sentiment, and I don't think this is as isolated as in the case of gay rights. The far right has always had religiously derived disdain for women, but now we're seeing that disdain take shape as an actual rape apologist movement. I would be curious to query someone that is a little more knowledgeable about women's rights to determine if this is a recurring theme, or if this is a novelty. I'm really not sure. I feel pretty confident in saying that Gamergate and things like it do not exist in my memory outside of the last 5 years. The psychotics gunning down women in public places also seems unprecedented, although there have been serial killers that have targeted women all throughout history. I don't know. If you dig into each one of these issues I think you see a general pattern of long term historical progress with a short term turn for the worst. A lot of that might be tied to economic issues and the effects that those have on social climate, but some of these narratives are very troubling. I wouldn't say we should be pessimistic, but these recent developments don't seem encouraging, either. Are we going to turn the corner sooner or later, or not at all? I'm really not sure.
There's a definite surge against certain people. I agree with progress across the board, on average. But gamergate is a pretty big surge, chasing out some of the few women in tech with death threats. And with BLM backlash and reddit idiocy it seems like this year in particular is pretty bad for black people online.
Radicalization of the political right,
Stormfront,
Reddit,
Gamergate... Yeah, it's not gone, or going. It's evolving. Thinking that it's on the down and saying that one should stop bothering to deal with it because it's going to go away is a dangerous way to think. There lies normalization.
I see your point but I take issue with a couple things. The overall tone of hate and division isn't helpful to having realistic conversation and debate on these issues. It's disappointing coming from someone who nominally wants to change minds. But more importantly, this argument is extremely Americentric and historically blind. There are places like Ireland that are full of angry white men that have been horribly mistreated long times before African slavery started. Ever wonder where the "Gingers have no soul" meme comes from? And African descendants have plenty of blood in the past too, look up what Shaka Zulu did to Zwide's mother. Does that mean that the sins of the father should be visited on the sons perpetually? I don't think it does for anyone. I'd like to discuss your theorem: "What is a negative stereotype of an angry white man? There aren't any." I'd just like to point the obvious. They're shallow, closed minded, insular, pedantic, and self-centered. It's the Fox News greatest hits. You also have a misconception about the term "Social Justice Warrior". You seem to think it's a dig against social justice as a category, when it's not. It's a rejection of the idea that social justice can only be accomplished by war. That it can only be, as you so painfully put it, "a zero-sum game". Why must we crater the beautiful idea that diversity, inclusion, and equality enrich us all? What happened to Dr King and his Dream? Look back at Jesus, Gandi, and MLK. Then, and tell me what has changed more than love and peace. Hate isn't the answer. This blurb had a defeatist and pandering attitude, full of casual racism and I feel it wouldn't serve to change one mind that didn't already believe your tenant. Your arguments were malformed and your barbs missed the target. But I thank you for sharing your thoughts and hope you don't take my criticism too harshly. I just think race relations are too complicated for either a Tumblr blog or /r/GamerGate. Please respond, I'm very interested in your take on this. ^_^ (also, please excuse any autocorrect shenanigans, this was typed on mobile.)
Put the tone argument away. What he's posted is not unrealistic, and you don't get to dismiss it as that because of its tone. By White Men, right? Of course non-white societies have disputes too. How is that proving anything here? All I'm hearing is "What about the black on black violence, huh?" It doesn't prove that "It's a white man's world" is Americentric or historically blind. Racial segregation wasn't Americentric. Racial inequality in western societies today isn't Americentric. The self-centered angry white man is ambitious. The insular angry white man is strategic. The closed minded angry white man is focused. The shallow angry white man is discerning. The pedantic angry white man is someone who pays attention to detail. These are the traits that are framed as beneficial. Angry women are clearly at that time of the month. Not to mention vain (shallow), defensive (closed minded), cliquey (insular), naggy (pedantic) and manipulative (self-centered). Why would you do that...There are places like Ireland that are full of angry white men that have been horribly mistreated
look up what Shaka Zulu did
They're shallow, closed minded, insular, pedantic, and self-centered.
/r/GamerGate
So I wasn't going to get involved, but seeing as you so elegantly dismissed 800 years of Irish oppression as "lol, white people", I will. You're just demanding AdonisGksu put away his argument without addressing it, which has a very valid point. There is a very real atmosphere with a lot of groups of "division and hatred". Remember that video that surfaced a few days ago of that guy being kicked out of a public space for being white at a Black Lives Matter protest? What does anybody gain by division and hatred? It baffles me when I hear about "People of Colour only" spaces. Why would you ever want to promote segregation? What does anybody gain? Surely you're just increasing the rift between the two sides? Surely the goal of anti-racism is a world where nobody sees a "black person" or "white person" but just a "person"? It would be infinitely more productive to focus on the actual injustice that minorities face in the western world, rather than focusing on hating and barricading yourselves from people with a different skin colour than yourself. There is an argument I see thrown around a lot which concludes that a) White people are inherently racist and b) It is impossible for a non-white person to be racist. People who make these conclusions always point back to a system of power form which white people have benefited over hundreds of years. Irish people are, for the most part, white. We were under pretty tyrannical British rule for roughly 800 years. We did not benefit from any sort of "system of power" for that whole time, and yet, Irish people are still happily pushed under the blanket term of "racist white people." The model doesn't work outside of the United States, and is therefore US-centric.Put the tone argument away. What he's posted is not unrealistic, and you don't get to dismiss it as that because of its tone.
Dylann Roof was welcomed with open arms into a black church, and look where that got the churchgoers. The point of black-only, or POC-only, or women-only spaces is to feel a certain level of safety and be able to discuss one's experiences and perspectives without having white people/men dominate the conversation. Usually whites/men do this without even realizing it besause they are just used to their own entitlement. I have to agree it'd pretty absurd. Some of the most extreme ugliness I've seen was between Asians and blacks.It baffles me when I hear about "People of Colour only" spaces. Why would you ever want to promote segregation?
There is an argument I see thrown around a lot which concludes that [...] It is impossible for a non-white person to be racist.
What Roof did was truly despicable. Nobody will be turned away from a church, and he knew that. It is an example of the work of a twisted, sick individual who is in no way representative of anyone at all. If you want to use what he did to promote segregation, then you shouldn't be opposed to other people excluding others for similar crimes. For example, in light of many terrorist attacks, should people then exclude Muslims from certain events? Personally, I don't think so. These disasters are the work of terrorists who don't represent any functioning member of the general public at all. EDIT: With regards to your point about excluding people because they might take over the conversation; that's a fair point that I'll need to think over. I had a conversation with Herunar a little way down there who made the same point. At the moment however, I am unconvinced that the good outweighs the bad in the idea of self-segregation.
My point is that there is a lack of trust among many black Americans about white people entering their spaces. The church shooting crystalized that distrust among a lot of black people I know. I'm not sure how to explain the categorical difference between a group of black activists excluding whites versus a government or company excluding Muslims from an airplane. Well, one difference is de jure discrimination versus de facto, but even that is not what I'm getting at. Additionally, the message from a lot of the Black Lives Matter groups has been to encourage white people to form their own auxillary groups to support BLM.
Eeeeh, I see where you're coming from (and I most certainly agree that the Irish people were treated horrifically by the British and, later, America as well) but I think you're missing the point about the PoC only spaces. That video you're referring to I believe was of Bernie Sanders having the mic taken away from his at a political event - this wasn't done by the broader BLM movement but rather two extremists whose views are fairly atypical. He wasn't kicked out for being white, though - he had the mic taken from him because these two activists wanted to shed more light on racial issues in the US, particularly concerning the African American community, because they felt white progressives sort of ignored them. And they do, honestly - I think Bernie Sanders is an exception to this, though. But any POC spaces (I mean, I don't even know to what extent they actually exist, to be honest with ya) exist just to give people a bit of a safe space where they can discuss issues that frankly a lot of people can't really empathize with just because they haven't experienced racism in the same way. It's all very well and good to say "We should see each other as people, not colors guys!" but that doesn't really work when the system is so ultimately rigged to see people as inherently different. You gotta start somewhere to get that ultimate egalitarian goal - and even then, it's a goal that will probably never, ever be achieved because people are a bit shit at treating others as equals, as the occupation of Ireland very clearly showed. Shit, if you had a English guy in 17th century Ireland walking into a pub and declaring HEY GUYS LET'S JUST GET OVER THIS DISCRIMINATORY DIVIDE AND BE COOL, he'd get a pretty rude answer. I mean, fuck, if you had an English person today going into Ireland or Northern Ireland and just saying "Oh hey that's all water under the bridge, you don't have to be so bitter about it all, couldn't have been that bad, amirite?" he'd get a rude response, and deservedly so. White people aren't inherently racist. I don't agree with anyone who says otherwise. But it's important to note that Irish people weren't seen as human - heck I don't even think they were seen as white. They were seen, much like Asians and Africans and etc were, as a different race. So you could argue that because they weren't seen as white they didn't get the benefits of being white. The same goes for the Polish and Eastern Europeans and people from the Caucasus.
Thanks for the response, you make some pretty compelling points. The video I was talking about was this one, but thanks for the clarification about the Bernie Sanders one; I was curious about what the whole hubbub about it was and was tempted to use it as an illustration as well. In any case, I don't know enough about the race issues currently facing the United States, so I'll try and gear my thoughts more towards the issues in a more general sense. In any case, I agree Ireland is hardly a glimmering bastion of hope when it comes to overcoming racial adversity. My ex-girlfriend was English who grew up in a primarily Irish Catholic area of Belfast, she went through hell just for being there. I do believe that that a huge part racial problems stems from the us-them mentality. I agree with you, eliminating this idea is not something than can be done easily, but it is the place to start. Taking my ex's ordeals in Belfast as an example, a lot of the problems occurred because Catholics and Protestants refused to associate with one another. Now, there is no obvious solution I can see to the issues in the north, but, by creating a "white only" or "PoC-only" space you are creating an issue that parallels the issues in Northern Ireland. You are creating and/or deepening an us-them mentality, when the goal should be to obliterate it. Even if the intention of this segregation is innocuous, it will still result in a huge mess. Your last argument is an interesting one and I'll have to mull over it for awhile, but nevertheless my previous point still stands. All of those people didn't benefit from a historical hierarchy of power, and so the "all white people are inherently racist" argument still doesn't hold. Anyways, I'm glad to see you don't subscribe to that ideology, and that tells me that at least on the whole we're in agreement, and right now we're just discussing the details and nuances.
Mmm, now, the thing is, I do think most of this discussion revolves around the US (there is probably even more racism against minority groups in certain European countries but I think it's a very different sort) and the thing is, racial politics in the US are probably as virulent as the Northern Irish sectarian conflict, but also very different. Now, from what I heard from my Catholic Northern Irish friends, Protestants and Catholics make up an almost even amount of the population there - the Protestants have a small majority, but it very small. In the US we aren't creating an issue that parallels what is happening in NI. That issue is already there and has been for a long time, simply because the white majority (and I say white in the context of the US here again - not all white people, like people you could call minority whites like Polish immigrants or the Jewish community and etc) was in a position that was inherently superior to African Americans in particular as well as the Asian and Hispanic community, among other non-white minorities. They completely outnumbered them, held a disproportionate amount of power and for a long time the US was basically an apartheid state in some respects. That isn't to say that EVERY SINGLE WHITE PERSON who benefited from their advantages was racist or at fault - I doubt anyone would argue that, but the system was most certainly rigged in their favor. Do you see how radically different that is from NI? The Protestants may have some advantages but you could argue that the Catholics held their own pretty well. The advantages that the white ruling classes had over minorities in the US is nothing like that - the us-them mentality has been there for ages. And just as you pointed out there is no obvious solution in the north, there is no easy, obvious solution in the States. It will take time to really heal all those wounds and because of institutional racism African Americans in particular still suffer a lot of injustice today. That's why those safe spaces are pretty important. But once again, I really don't think many of those exist to the extent that the media portrays them. I don't have a problem with them though, much in the way I don't have a problem with, for example, a gaming convention that caters to the LGBT crowd exclusively or Feminist Clubs/Societies that have 'women-only' nights to discuss pertinent issues that only they can really empathize with and fully understand. These safe spaces for marginalized and minority communities are so very, very important, just because that minority identity often forms a pretty core part of their everyday experience and life in a way that being part of the majority doesn't. I think there are very, very few people that sincerely believe "all white people are inherently racist". From a US perspective and context, I think a lot of people are often very frustrated and scared for their safety and their communities, and that frustration can often translate into statements that may come across as a bit inflammatory but are actually sorta understandable if you consider their perspective.
I don't really want to get too bogged down in the history of The Troubles, I was more trying to use it as an illustration for segregation/the us-them mentality. I see the point you're driving at in your third paragraph, I agree/disagree to a certain extent but just so that I don't end up going into too much history (and a lot of Irish history is very contentious) I'll just leave it. You may well be right, the phenomenon of self-segregation could just be amplified by the media. Personally, I'm pretty unconvinced that it's a net-good. In my eyes, it's just preaching to the choir, and opening up rifts even more. Which of us is right, I don't know, but I see where you're coming from and take it into consideration. There are a few Americanisms that spill across the water over here, and I've begun to see in recent years more people here in Ireland discussing the race issues here in the same way that you would discuss race issues in America. Some of my interest in the matter stems from my opinion that the commentary on your side of the Atlantic simply doesn't translate over to our side because our histories are far too different; and yet I do see some of it translating over directly. Anyways, thanks for the discussion! I really appreciate interesting conversation and it's given me quite a bit to think about!
I'd be a terrible politician, because I generally address myself to people that are either already of the opinion that I hold, or they could be brought to it pretty easily. I'm not going to win over people on the other side of the fence, and I don't try. I don't think there's a middle ground that we should be converging on. They're wrong, their positions are vulgar, and accepting any of it in the name of mutual understanding is out of the question. The people I'm concerned with are the moderates. The people who can see that MRAs, nativists, and anarcho-capitalists are burning down the house, but for whatever reason don't feel compelled to do anything about it. And to those people I'm stating a call to action: Call this shit out and let people that are getting roughed up know that you're on their side. In the context of an online community it means showing support for the "others" that get piled on by a vocal, racist/misogynistic minority. If the silent majority let's that slide those people might very well leave. And I think that we don't want that. In the broader political landscape there are a lot of implications. MLK Jr. talks about the "white moderate" in Letter from Birmingham Jail and it's something I've come back to a lot in my personal considerations. A silent majority is complicit if an empowered minority brutalizes a marginalized minority. As for the zero-sum game, I think it would be difficult to conceive of it any other way. White, male America is the beneficiary of years of injustice. The dynamic is different in other countries and at different times, but that is the reality here and now. Equality would absolutely benefit everyone, but it will come at the cost of a crooked privilege being revoked from those that are rulers now. To them it can only be viewed as a loss. This is short-sighted and egotistical, but I don't think pointing that out is going to change anyone's behavior. If someone with a broken moral compass has 10 yachts, and you tell them they can only have 6 "in the name of equality" they're going to view it as a zero-sum game in which the violence is visited on them. That they would get to live in a healthier society as a result of this isn't going to win hearts and minds in that camp. As for casual racism, I'm not sure what you mean. I'm a stereotypical white guy. I don't hate white people, or men, but I'm sick of seeing the violence a segment of my group is doing in the world. I don't think we need to be polite about it. But again, I'd be a shitty politician.
http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/30/i-can-tolerate-anything-except-the-outgroup/ They're angry at mexicans and they're angry at women. They're angry at a Big Government that ostensibly serves the interests of minorities and women, exclusively. When an angry white man talks about "social justice warriors" he is laying his mind bare to you; justice is necessarily a war on white men because that is who injustice serves. I'd be remiss to leave out the economic elephant in the room: the angry white man is all the more angry because privilege is delegated by class as well as race and gender. That the angry white man should blame other angry white men for his economic woes is something that doesn't occur to him, amazingly. Who the fuck are these angry white men you're talking about? They're clearly not stereotypical white men, because you're one of those and you don't display any of the qualities you've attributed to them: anger at minorities, fear of progress, viewing any increase in equality as a loss. Could these angry white men be the Red Tribe?I'm a stereotypical white guy.
a lot of white men are angry.
An attack on injustice is a proxy war on the white man.
White, male America is the beneficiary of years of injustice. The dynamic is different in other countries and at different times, but that is the reality here and now. Equality would absolutely benefit everyone, but it will come at the cost of a crooked privilege being revoked from those that are rulers now. To them it can only be viewed as a loss.
First of all, I'd like to thank you for being civil in your response. I meant my comment in that way so I appreciate you doing the same. Personally I feel like lately there has been too little civil disagreement and resulting refinement of dialogue within the social justice movement. To me, that's the real power in debate, the ability to refine your arguments until they're razor honed and unassailable. So, thank you for responding. On your main point I'll agree to disagree. But I'll say that two things. First, in my experience positivity always is more powerful and affects more lasting change than negativity. I have yet to see calling it out work to change hearts. Most people react defensively to being put on the spot like that and it takes a lot of concerted effort to retrain yourself to handle it better. To me, the presupposition of that much internal change would be better spent on the actual problems instead of taking the easy way out of calling someone a racist douche. Second, in my own life I've seen that social respect and equality is never a zero sum game. There is no limit on the amount of love and appreciation we can give out. But if we're moving into economic realms, yes there are a finite number of pennies running around. 10 yachts versus 6 is an entirely different question. After all, one can be dirt poor and still be happier than any billionaire. But we can do better, that's obvious. And about the casual racism, you can do with that what you will. I've read a lot about racism only being from white people, or the 3rd wave let's-rewrite-the-dictionary "power+privilege" and I reject the premise there. I personally don't think the color of your skin makes any difference if you're saying things that attribute negative characteristics to a large portion of a race of people. If you're white and you say racist things about black people, that's racist. If you're black and say racist things about white people, that's racist. If you're white and you say racist things about white people, that's racist. But I may have been painting with a broad brush, so feel free to ignore if you don't think it applies.
I would like to point out that even if this is sarcastic, it's only the illusion of a zero sum game. There are no real losses from giving others the privleges that were not previously taken by force or cohersion. I agree with the sentiment though.Because leveling the playing field is a zero-sum game. A woman's right to vote comes at the expense of a man's vote being diminished, and so it follows for the rest. The position of the white man is a position propped up by injustice, historical and contemporary. An attack on injustice is a proxy war on the white man.
I'll give you my theory. Bear in mind it's just a wild guess, and I have no background in analyzing social issues. So take this with a grain of salt. I think it's because they (we) are told they're supposed to be the top of the game. The articles that say white men make up the majority of CEOs. Or that white males have much of the wealth. Then they look at their own lives. Well I have a shitty job, drive a shitty car and live in a dump I can barely pay for. So it makes them angry when they see a woman or a non-white person "get theirs" because someone who "shouldn't" have gotten it did when they "should" have but didn't. Basically "they got what should have been mine." It fits with being angry at women and non-whites and not other white males, because the perception is it fits that they "got theirs." I'm not saying it's appropriate (it isn't), and I have no research or human behavior education to base this on. It's just me speculating out loud. For what it's worth, my father is an angry white man who is angry at other white men. His life didn't pan out like he wanted it to, and he's angry at people who he perceives as doing well.why are white men in America so fucking angry?
The elephant in the room here is class. Rich white men have done a remarkable job of goading working class white men for the past few decades. So-called rednecks have tended to identify less with women and minorities with a similar socio-economic background than elite pseudo-cowboys like Reagan and Bush Jr. There has been a steady decline of unskilled labor jobs and other opportunities over the years. Instead of questioning the US economic system, right-wing pundits just prod them a bit into blaming "illegals" for their troubles. I'd be surprised if Trump belived a quarter of the crap he's been spewing lately. He's just playing to the Republican base.
I use a simplified outlook that white males create the following culture: 1 - If you can't take a joke, you don't deserve to be taken seriously. 2 - If you're a minority who can take a joke, everyone shall mindlessly repeat jokes to make themselves look good and you look bad. 3 - Complaining about white males (or asking for equality) means complaining about our jokes, so you don't deserve to be taken seriously.
(This post is a bit ramble-y and very off-topic so apologies for that but I've just been having thoughts about race and gender for quite a while now so I figure I might as well get it off my chest)
As people have pointed out, it definitely just comes down to white men being angry because suddenly their great privileges are waning. If we're just talking about America and leaving the rest of the West out, the population is becoming much, much more diverse in terms of race, ethnicity and religion and so we're basically seeing a slow transformation of the status quo. And by slow I mean slow - the average white person (not even man, to be honest - obviously white women are worse off but they still benefit from huge racial privileges) will probably have a much, much easier time than me, for example, being an Indian-American that's also Muslim. But then I would suggest that it is hard to just say that 'white men' have it better and are thus very angry when the privileges are infringed upon. How do we define that term, really? I'm probably willing to bet that, say, a Polish or Eastern European immigrant coming over to the States would be treated worse than a WASP man or woman from, I dunno, upstate New York. And then when you look at it from a European perspective, fuck, the state of brown/black people could be considered even worse - but at the same time Northwestern Europeans (Low Countries, Scandinavia, France, Germany...) in say the UK are looked upon in a much better light than someone from Poland or Lithuania. Or heck, even Greece or Italy or Spain. And then when you look at it in a general world perspective the lines between gender and racial privilege start to get even more bloody confusing. I'm staying with my parents at the moment in the UAE, and I've sort of lived in the Middle East for about ~8 years give or take, and stuff is weird here. Arabs from certain 'bad' countries with light skin, even Egyptians and Syrians, people who for all intents and purposes almost look a little European, are discriminated against by the ruling elite in Gulf countries - and Africans with darker skin are treated in a subhuman manner unless they have some Emirati or Qatari blood in them. White people, broadly speaking, including those white people that face huge discrimination in Western Europe and the States, are venerated as these sort of divine beings with incalculable knowledge - both genders, in fact. They are seen as people that should be the faces of companies and deserve the highest pay (even if they don't work as hard as other people) and most importantly, these people are seen as expats. To be an expat is to live the life - free accommodation, company provided car, your children's education paid for, the works. Whereas a guy like my Dad, who is Indian-American and is thus the wrong sort of American and most certainly the wrong shade of brown in the eyes of his employers, would get paid much less and is not seen as an expat. I'm steering way off course right now but I guess my point is, racial relations are bloody weird and incredibly confusing to me, and often intersect and supersede gendered hierarchies and are just altogether an odd state of affairs. I'd go into East Asia and their view on race as well and stuff gets even more confusing but then this post would become even more convoluted, so I should probably stop, haha.
You didn't get to East Asia, but do you mind if I do? I lived in Korea for a few years and my wife is Korean. Things work a bit differently than in the UAE, though there are some similarities, based on your description. The ethnic Korean majority is the top of the heap. After that, it's really hard to say... within that majority, men definitely have a couple rungs on women. Among minorities, "westerners" or people from developed countries (this would include places like Japan or Taiwan, I think) are at the top of the heap (and among them, whites are generally treated better than black, brown, or Asian westerners). Yet its hard to say that "white privilege" applies- while whites in Korea do have certain privileges compared to say, laborers from Cambodia, it's clear that Korean males run the show- privilege is based on power. Anyway, a theme throughout East Asia in "race" relations is ethno-nationalism (ethnicity is tied to national identity) and a dynamic relationship between economic and racial/ethnic status of outsiders. A black American would be somewhat more positively viewed than a black African in many such countries. A Thai American might have to deal with more shit in Japan than a white American (including stuff like "so... where are you really from?"), but will probably have a bit more social status than a Thai-Thai. So on that note, I would agree, to a small degree, with sentiments expressed in this topic that American race relations don't necessarily apply to a global discussion of race. "It's a white man's world" requires some qualification (ethnic minorities in China might say it's a Han man's world), but we can certainly say "It's a white man's country". But that's kind of nitpicking, and I think the original post is spot-on to frame the issue in the US.
In the case of Korea you also have to take geopolitics into account. America's military presence makes a weird hierarchy. Several GIs have literally gotten away with murder. But even if you're a white civilian you get get deported just for a fist fight. Something I hadn't considered before I went to Korea was the difference that various East Asians are viewed there. In retrospect it's not too surprising, but still quite a shock coming from the States. There's an intense anti-Japanese sentiment, and yet a grudging respect. Whereas Chinese, Filipinos and SE Asians aren't very highly regarded, but also not hated. There's also the subtle colorism in Korea. Fair skin is supposedly more beautiful. I'm sure this effects a lot of people there on an unconscious level. Every so often there's TEFL job listings that explicitly say "whites only" need apply. I'm rather encouraged that so many white expats have spoken up about it. It's still so strange to me that someone from Asian descent is automatically not considered a "real" American/Canadian/etc. And they'll get laughed at for not speaking 100% perfect Korean whereas whites sometimes get praised for saying 안녕하세요.
I think the American military presence is much less of a factor. The Army has gotten better about managing the young enlisted crowd, and anymore there's a greater likelihood that off-base shenanigans gets off-base punishments. And to be really blunt, GIs, especially enlisted, are viewed pretty low in comparison to other OECD foreigners by Koreans... just about the bottom of the developed-world heap. It used to be much worse, in terms of both how some GIs got away with stuff and general tensions between GIs and locals. In the 70s, there was a major riot in/near Itaewon, which started with black GIs not being provided the same services (as well as "services", ahem) as white GIs. The colorism you brought up is interesting. Yeah, it exists, but I wouldn't say that it has a major impact all on its own. It's more or less something that kids tease each other about, and less directly, might play some role with the extreme importance of outward appearance in Korea (pictures on resumes, etc). It's also important to note that this colorism has just about nothing at all to do with white people; it's been considered a mark of beauty and class in Korea for centuries (kind of like it used to be in Europe, where you didn't want to identify as a tanned laborer). The TEFL thing also requires a little more nuance. Those shitty job listings are written by the privileged majority, and they're also among the worst jobs. Korean Americans get the shaft there, but then again Korean Americans get easy access to a much better visa. Interestingly, Irish and other native speakers (white or otherwise) often have doors closed based on their accent- some schools specifically want a North American (most common) or RP-British teacher. We can connect all this back to ethno-nationalism (even ethno-linguistic-nationalism?), as language teaching visas in Korea are restricted to countries where some bureaucatic process has decided real native speakers come from- generally, wealthy(-ish) countries with a visible white population. So South Africans, regardless of what language they actually learned first, are in (including black and brown, though much less common in practice), while Indians and Phillipinos are out- again, you can see some blurry lines between race and economic status.
Wow, never heard about that riot before. I was also thinking about resumes re: colorism. Tho with the way they touch the photos up, I'm sure it not as much of a prejudicial point as it could be. I've noticed in other parts of Asia not even Ireland or S. Africa are considered "real" native English countries.
" What is a negative stereotype of an angry white man? There aren't any."
A "Crazy Hick", any of the "WT" sporting a mullet on an episode of "Cops", some genius with a monster truck sporting a dangling pair of "truck nuts" would generally fit the bill for me. Not dudes that I would enjoy spending time near.
The thing that I wanted to highlight is that any "angry white man" is some other thing first and foremost if they present themselves as a problem. The angry hick is an angry hick, not an angry white man. We never talk about the problems of white culture, it is always an issue with some other sub-culture within the context of white men. The ferguson protesters were just black, and then we hear calls to address the issues with the black community. When black people get angry, men or women, it's a problem with black culture. When white women get angry, they're too emotional. When white men get angry we don't have anything to say, unless we can pin the problem on something other than what has become the white male victim complex (I'm not saying no one is talking about these things, but we need to get a lot fucking louder about it.) None of this would matter if there weren't real consequences to letting white male culture run roughshod over our political policies and our social environments. Maybe the answer isn't the stupid generalizations that get applied to everyone else; maybe we should talk about the issues of white men within the proper context, but then let's be consistent. Let's make sure we're having a conversation about the particular white men that are causing problems in our society, and not just pretend that "conservative will be conservative" is some kind of answer. When you can't so much as have an online community without bigotry leaking out of every topic like an overstuffed sack of hatred, there's a real problem. When users of color/women toss up there hands and say "fuck this, it isn't worth it," there's a real problem. And that doesn't begin to address the public policy issues that literally have life and death consequences.
Thanks for the perspective. My perspective is that of a middle income suburban white dude. We should, and need to, be having these conversations. Online communities are just the places where people like you and me can have these discussions. Let's get to work.
Hubski is one of the few places where something like this is even a possibility. It was pretty upsetting to see the shitstorm that took place a few days ago. Making a statement about it is important, in my eyes, because this place is special and keeping it special means speaking out when unacceptable abuses come spilling onto our feeds. You can't necessarily make the idiots disappear, but at least you can say, "Hey, I'm on your side, even if that doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot." Keeping this community enjoyable to a diverse group of people is the only way we're going to get to see those viewpoints. Without those people speaking for themselves, and knowing that they matter to us, we're left to guess at what their perspectives might be. We all lose in that case.
What shit storm? Have only been spuriously checking the site this week as I wanted a break.
A handful of users left because the environment for them was too toxic, too negative, however you want to put it. It happened more or less right in front of all of us, but for the most part we didn't really notice until it was too late. I'm not strictly sure if everything went down on husbki alone, but certainly part of it did. Here's a snippet of the dramski, but it seemed to have been all over the place.
Fuck. 8bit and minimumwage? That's upsetting. I don't know if I can blame them. Sometimes being on the Internet gets my blood boiling as well. One of the reasons I've taken a break from the site the last few days is that I felt I was posting a little too much and having a few too many sticky discussions.
Yeah. Maybe they're going to start playing piano, or learn Go, instead of spending time trying to correct idiots on the internet, but for those of us that are here to wind down and write/read a little bit in a civil and thoughtful place, it's a loss. Hubski is a cool place, but fuck me if the internet doesn't have some serious problems.
I don't know if agree with your claim that "leveling the playing field is a zero-sum game" although to many men is might seem that this is the case. There's a reason for this though, check out this and this to read about it. Essentially, testosterone by nature increases the competitive nature and decreases cooperation. Thus the balancing of power between gender, which should bring about increased cooperation is viewed by those with higher testosterone levels as a threat to their power. I certainly don't want to excuse anyone's behavior though. Hopefully we've all evolved to the point where we can recognize this kind of biological tendency and think rationally about how to curb the behavior it might otherwise bring about.
I think that science plays an important role in understanding one another, from really basic things to really complex things, and you can never have too much science in any dialogue. But let's not miss the forest for the trees. This is a problem with white men fucking things up and not facing social or legal consequences. This is about white men being upset any time an advantage is removed, or a wrong is righted. This is about white men fighting to limit women's access to healthcare as much as it's about white men making the internet a toxic place for women and minorities. These aren't things that we're beyond, yet. As I said before, hubski is very much an exception, but that means that we have to be very vigilant about these things, and raise our voices when the angry white men take a dump on our intellectual cohorts, whatever they happen to be, because being the exception means the odds are working against us. I'm not saying we need to demonize white men (I am one, so that would be a strange position,) but let's be honest about what's wrong with the internet; it's angry white men.
If usernames are any indication, I see a lot of women making those comments. [A recent poll by Reuters] (http://theweek.com/speedreads/571396/donald-trump-still-tops-among-gop-women-new-poll-finds) puts Donald Trump the top choice of GOP women.Think about the comment section of your local newspaper. At any moment a KKK rally might spring out of any of these environments.
We'd do well not to pretend that things are different than they are. Donald Trump's success in the polls has shown us something: a lot of white men are angry.