a thoughtful web.
Good ideas and conversation. No ads, no tracking.   Login or Take a Tour!
comment by deanSolecki
deanSolecki  ·  3388 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: It's a White Man's Internet

I guess you can put a weirdly optimistic spin on it. If you corner a rat it will turn around and fight like hell. Maybe this surge of bigotry is the rat knowing it's cornered.

But we'll see. The political policies have tangible outcomes. The race back to the middle ages is going to fuck up women's lives. Getting murdered by militant police ends lives, but it also influences how other people live their lives.

I don't think we really know yet what abuse on the internet does to people. What effects do toxic internet communities have on people and culture? I guess we'll find out eventually, but I don't suspect we'll like what we find out.





b_b  ·  3388 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Maybe this surge of bigotry is the rat knowing it's cornered.

Is there a surge of bigotry right now?

There's certainly more video evidence of bigotry, which is welcome sunlight on the bacteria, but I don't think it's a stretch to say that bigotry is at an all time low in the US. Go watch The 40 Year Old Virgin. There's a scene where Paul Rudd and Seth Rogan are insulting each other back and forth with gay jokes. That was a mere 10 years ago, and I doubt the same joke would be funny today. The default insults when I was in school in the 90s were "fag" and "retard". I don't know how kids pick on each other today, but based on the frequency I hear those words now--and the scorn they normally draw--I have to assume that times have changed.

There's certainly a long way to go, especially with racism against black people specifically, but I think there's an awakening to their plight, not a surge of bigotry. We see a lot more of it, because people care more now, so it makes the news. I would say that things look bad, because they are, but heightened awareness can only make it better.

deanSolecki  ·  3387 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I think with some things it's really hard to tell. Has police brutality hit a new local maximum? I think so. I also think that that local maximum is a lot better than the global maximum.

So there are two different things going on; the long term trend has been good and the short term trend has been bad.

A lot of people say that police brutality has always been a reality for black people, and video evidence is simply bring it out into the open. I'm inclined to believe that this is true, but I think additionally things like stop and frisk and similar policies in the last 2 decades have made these problems even worse.

Basically 2 decades of politicians gunning for Tough on Crime policies has given us exactly what you'd expect. So it's both. Long term things have gotten better, but we've taken a bad turn.

As far as the rest of the surge in bigotry, I'm not confident one way or the other. With respect to gay rights, I think you have to think of things in terms of separate domains: policy, public opinion, and religious ostracization. In terms of policy, gay rights has made absolutely staggering progress. In terms of public opinion gays have a small majority in support of civil rights. The religious right is absolutely boiling over with hatred, but I don't know that that is any different than it was since christianity came into existence. So, overall, there isn't a surge here, so much as a sustained religious ostracization in particular religious circles. Within Christianity, broadly, your garden variety christian has moved pretty far in the direction of acceptance, but I wouldn't want to be gay in Alabama.

As rinx and tla have pointed out, women haven't fared well in recent years, but we'd do well to remember the historical context; things have been shitty for women... forever. That notwithstanding, the last decade has seen a rise in anti-woman sentiment, and I don't think this is as isolated as in the case of gay rights. The far right has always had religiously derived disdain for women, but now we're seeing that disdain take shape as an actual rape apologist movement. I would be curious to query someone that is a little more knowledgeable about women's rights to determine if this is a recurring theme, or if this is a novelty. I'm really not sure. I feel pretty confident in saying that Gamergate and things like it do not exist in my memory outside of the last 5 years. The psychotics gunning down women in public places also seems unprecedented, although there have been serial killers that have targeted women all throughout history.

I don't know. If you dig into each one of these issues I think you see a general pattern of long term historical progress with a short term turn for the worst. A lot of that might be tied to economic issues and the effects that those have on social climate, but some of these narratives are very troubling. I wouldn't say we should be pessimistic, but these recent developments don't seem encouraging, either. Are we going to turn the corner sooner or later, or not at all? I'm really not sure.

rinx  ·  3388 days ago  ·  link  ·  

There's a definite surge against certain people. I agree with progress across the board, on average. But gamergate is a pretty big surge, chasing out some of the few women in tech with death threats. And with BLM backlash and reddit idiocy it seems like this year in particular is pretty bad for black people online.

tla  ·  3387 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Radicalization of the political right, Stormfront, Reddit, Gamergate...

Yeah, it's not gone, or going. It's evolving.

Thinking that it's on the down and saying that one should stop bothering to deal with it because it's going to go away is a dangerous way to think. There lies normalization.