Apparently the way I talk to people about their beliefs/behaviors is offensive.
Example 1, I was filling out some government-issue paperwork in relation to my heart condition and my school (Disability-resource stuff) when I came across a big swath of questions that made absolutely no sense in the context of the form and the information it needed. When I brought it up to my mom she basically gave me the 'It's a government form, it's going to be bad just by it's nature, do the best you can with it.' She makes a point to vote, to not be a single issue voter (Still votes Republican, but feels bad about it sometimes) but still believes that the whole two party thing is a good idea, that it's not corrupt to the bone and that the 'Will of the people' still matters to those who run the country. So, because it confused me that a person could believe the government is both good and full of crap (Poorly designed forms as an example of larger problems in a lack of error correction within the system) I asked how she held both of those beliefs. A close approximation of my phrasing was 'How can you believe that the government is both worth supporting ideologically AND a bloated, mismanaged exploitable piece of garbage?' I noted an apparent contradiction and tried my best to present a question that would (Hopefully) lead me to an answer that would either eliminate the contradiction or have my mom figure out what she actually felt about the government. Instead she got a little upset, said I was making her sound stupid and that I should be more conversational and less offensive.
Example 2, I was out with Friend A last night and we wanted to go pickup my Wii that I left at Friend B's (Alcohol and Super Smash bro's the night before) apartment. B told us he was in a movie and would be back in an hour or so, so we drove to a coffee shop near his apartment (15 minute drive from original friends house) and waited for a bit(20 mins), before the friend at the movie told us he wasn't going to be back at his house until the next day, as he was going to his girlfriends straight after the movie. B is known for being... Unpredictable. So I finish my coffee, shrug my shoulders and A and I just head back to my A's house for the night. On the way back, A starts whining (Almost full blown nasal whine for most of the ride back) about B being inconsiderate/selfish, and after commiserating for a bit (Yeah it sucks, I wish he was a bit more aware sometimes too) I try and make the point that 1. We have always known that about B. 2, We shouldn't have left the Wii over there anyway, 3. Getting upset about it and STAYING upset about it is just dumb, because it won't make B feel any worse, and because I'm the only other one in the car all it does is make both of our moods worse. All in a calm tone of voice, and he starts giving me the conversation ending 'sure dude' eyeroll headshrug. Like, I should be just as pissed off about something I have no control over, and I shouldn't be trying to make sense of and deal with the situation as it is, not as how I want it to be.
Hubski, am I an asshole?
(Edit to include an apology for the text wall, I'm not sure how else to format it)
I believe I do the same at times, but people that know me well enough seem to overlook it (at least I hope). That said, I'll answer the question you posed to your mother: Not without exception, but I take the view that government efficiency can be a bad thing. At best, government can make most of the people happy, and trend towards making more people happy. However, no individual or group of individuals can understand the workings of government well enough that they can implement anything but partial and gradual changes without doing more harm than good. Central planning can be a terror for all of the realities it ignores. Just as important as the current state of government, is the direction in which it is evolving, and the speed of that evolution. Because of this, even the wisest despot is a fool.How can you believe that the government is both worth supporting ideologically AND a bloated, mismanaged exploitable piece of garbage?
Well, as long as we don't think you're an asshole, you're safe here. I don't find anything really wrong with either of your situations - there may have been ways to approach your thoughts more tactfully depending on the person, sure - and two examples do not a human or even a persona make. Sometimes other people act irrationally. Sometimes, they react even more irrationally when you try to point out that their actions aren't making sense. I guess, some people are more ruled by their emotions than logic, whereas others prefer the yardstick of logic. With those that prefer emotions, I have found, they do not really appreciate when you bring a lot of logic in, especially when it's quashing their own emotional output. I think it is a matter of learning that some approaches with people are not going to be effective, as opposed to being an asshole. My mother's irrational. Me pointing it out to her does not help anybody. For instance, once, she wanted me to get a job, so she took my car away until I could get a job. (Problem being: Cannot drive to job sites or interviews without vehicle.) Clearly I eventually managed, kind of swindling the car out of her, but point is some people don't make sense or prioritize it, and they don't appreciate it when it's pointed out to them especially when they are either already emotionally aroused or invested. It's like your friend who's not reliable, except these other friends, maybe they're emotional. And you just have to learn to deal with that aspect of them and expect it. Don't be too sensitive. ;) We like you all right.
Almost nothing is purely good or bad but a mix of costs and benefits. Your mothers view is one tempered by this realization even if she wouldn't express it this way. Anyone who simply declares that government is purely good or bad has an simplistic and immature view of the world.
There are plenty of things to hate about the government but on the whole it's benefits largely outweigh it's costs. It would be great to increase the benefit and decrease the costs. Each of us has our own set of preferences that conflict with each other individually, regionally, bureaucratically, economically and so forth, making the balance of all these preferences incredibly complex.
You may have disliked the form you had to fill out but you choose to fill that shit out anyway, why? Cost of dealing with the stuff you don't like must have outweighed the perceived benefit of having to deal with something you found irrelevant and annoying.
Heh. From Luminosity: While the secretary marked all the routes I'd need to follow for my schedule on the map in highlighter, I went through my mood-zapping routine. Some people counted to ten, but that only made explicit the natural diminishing intensity of emotions over time and forced the waiting period. My way took a little longer, even after I'd pruned the process from a notebook-eating timekiller to a streamlined mental process. When I was done, though, I was not annoyed anymore. The short version was just to review what I knew about my annoyance, and confirm to myself that I knew it. I knew that the woman had not caused it maliciously: she did not know me, did not know about this trigger, had no reason at all to try to irritate me, and was even now being supremely helpful. I knew that it did me no good to be annoyed: the emotion was not pleasant, it did not make me more effective at getting any of the things I wanted, and I did not prefer to be annoyed when interrupted. (It wasn't that I had a general desire to never be annoyed. I would have considered it appropriate if she'd shoved me for no reason or if she'd taken a personal phone call instead of doing her job when I walked in. But I had tried repeatedly in the past to eliminate altogether my dislike of interruptions, and that I'd so attempted was not consistent with wishing to be annoyed about this unspecial interruption in particular.) Long practice at excising just this sort of reaction made it come loose more easily than some moods might have. But my annoyance was the ascription of motive to the secretary, glued down with entitlement and habit. If the motive were recognized to be nonexistent and the entitlement dissolved and the habit fought as a thing in my brain that I did not welcome, they ceased to trouble me.Like, I should be just as pissed off about something I have no control over, and I shouldn't be trying to make sense of and deal with the situation as it is, not as how I want it to be.
Her face lit up when I said my name, and she interrupted me. "Of course! I have your schedule right here, and a map of the school." She pulled them out of a tall, messy paper tower on her desk. It would have done less than no good to let the third sentence I spoke to this woman be a rebuke for the interruption, and even less good to fume about it indefinitely without taking action to prevent its recurrence. I did not like being interrupted as I tried to communicate, and my relentless attacks on this button had done no good; it annoyed me, every time. But I could make the annoyance brief, with a little work.
Regarding your friend: You have a specific and recurring problem with this friend. It might be a good idea to make your friend aware of your feelings at a later neutral time ("Hey, there's something I'd like to talk about, can we get together?") using a clear assertive message that will show an openness to discuss the problem, take responsibility for your part in the problem, explain the consequences, and search for solutions. (pm me if you want the formula laid out). There are other choices as others have suggested in this thread. What is so frustrating for you is being trapped in the car on the receiving end of this. What you want to do is take charge of your environment. You could stop the car and get out.How can you believe that the government is both worth supporting ideologically AND a bloated, mismanaged exploitable piece of garbage?
mk's response is excellent. There are other answers to the question, none of which were available to your mom at the moment.
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A lot of life involves holding two opposite thoughts in our minds simultaneously. People who can't do that go crazy. For example, often the things we love most about someone are also the things we hate most about someone, yet in a different circumstance. (I love his decisiveness and creativity, but I hate when he paints the kitchen pink and purple, suddenly without consulting me.)
Let me say it like this. If it wasn't a socio-emotional thing, but physical pain, there shouldn't be an issue. I see a friend hammering a nail into their hand all the while going 'My hand hurts.' Do I just say 'I don't want to see the blood and pain you're going through so I'll remove myself from the situation' or do I say 'Maybe stop hammering that nail into your hand.' Why is someone making themselves feel worse about something not the same?
In both cases you want to help. In both cases, you want to stop the pain and damage. Yet, in one case you can pull away the hammer and mop up the blood. In the other case you have to talk to a person who cannot or will not see your point. If verbally trying to help a person get beyond something they are obsessing about is not working and is hurting both you and the other person, it might be an idea to try something else.
Like get out of the car? I'm loathe to just change topics and 'leave something until later' because I come from a family where 'We'll take care of it later' means 'We'll take care of it never.' I want to address a problem when I see it, so the solution has context, rather than in some abstract way that never actually effects change.it might be an idea to try something else.
The first one I don't know about, but the second one: Let people handle their emotions how they like. If it makes him feel better to whine for five minutes, just agree and he'll probably move on quickly. Nothing pisses me off more than people who tell me to calm down when I'm venting. The AIM of the venting is for me to calm down.
If it wasn't a chronic thing I wouldn't talk about it. This guy is my best friend in the world, brother to me in all but blood, but he's a whiner. About absolutely trivial shit. This episode I just described lasted like 15-20 minutes of 'Uh huh' and 'Yeah he' s a dick, what are you gonna do?' before I started in on the 'Why are you still going on about it?' If solution
If it makes him feel better to whine for five minutes, just agree and he'll probably move on quickly.
Else
Apply solution
Stop bitching about it, it just makes things worse.
Meh. I dip out. It's a noted characteristic of mine since college; I leave parties when I want to leave parties, I don't tell people, especially if I think people are going to protest or fake-protest my leaving. When I'm done, I'm done. It may be a party or a bar but the point of the matter is when I no longer want to be somewhere I leave, regardless. At this point in life I expect my close friends to know this about me and accept it. Sometimes the dramatic ones forget. Recently I had someone accuse my (now ex) boyfriend of being "rude" because we left a bar where he and I left a bar where we were supposed to meet said friend...after being there for four hours and waiting for my friend for two hours. It's funny how what really was my prediliction for leaving got shoved onto the boyfriend because the friend didn't want to connect it to a known tendency of mine. Essentially, people should be smart enough to know their friends' tendencies, but sometimes they don't or don't want to acknowledge it. It sounds, however, like maybe you were frustrated by your friend venting for an extended period of time. Maybe your friend's flaw is that he likes to vent. Maybe handling that flaw might mean changing the subject instead of pointing out how much he is venting?
That's exactly it. I understand going 'man that sucks' for a bit, but too long feels like too long. I've had to start putting my foot down about this kind of stuff because I used to just go along with it until I was just as sick and frustrated of X as whoever was doing the whining. (I'll make my own bad moods thank you very much)It sounds, however, like maybe you were frustrated by your friend venting for an extended period of time
Not everyone processes emotions in the same way. Unless you understand this, you will continue to be an asshole. Okay, maybe he goes on for too long, and that's a problem that he has. However, you telling him that he should stop bitching about it because "it makes things worse" does NOT help. If you're going to react to it, tell him that it makes you feel bad that he goes on about it for so long. That's a more appropriate response, and it MIGHT get through to him.
Similar things happen to me. People tend to have a harsh reaction when I undermine their emotionally-charged beliefs with an effort to understand a situation. To me, it seems like two different ways of dealing with the negative emotions from a frustrating situation are at odds with each other. I've caught myself doing both. Fuming, "that guy is just a dumbass"-type rationalizations quickly patch me up and let me move on. Hatred is kind of cathartic. Maybe in your mom's case it was something positive, having faith in a system and emotional attachment to that faith. Like learning to love something after living with it so long. On the opposite side is trying to fit the situation into a bigger picture, really trying to understand why it's happened, and using that information to calm yourself somewhat. Understanding that people have habits, and aren't totally 100% in control of what they do. Or that an imperfect system that our society is based around could stand for improvement. I feel a great sense of calm when I rationalize things this way (or at least feel like I have). Almost...a smugness. I don't think you're an asshole. I do think the way you rationalized those situations brought you closer to the truth. But also to a disagreement with your people. Perhaps their reactions made you feel like an asshole because you brought a conflict where they thought there wouldn't be one.
This. I always hear (Because I'm in treatment for depression) life isn't all happy all the time, there will be conflicts. But then I also hear that I should go out of my way to avoid conflict, just be smooth and agreeable with all people, be 'pleasant' (I use quotes because someone being falsely agreeable with me I see as unpleasant.)Perhaps their reactions made you feel like an asshole because you brought a conflict where they thought there wouldn't be one.
Well, saying commands like "avoid conflict" or "engage people" is kind of worthless. The point is to develop your emotional intelligence to the point where you can distinguish between situations where you should keep your mouth shut and be supportive or perhaps swallow your pride, and those when you need to be heard. Emotional intelligence, so I'm told, is more common in leaders and correlates to life success better than traditional intelligence (e.g. problem solving capability). The key is to be sensitive to others whenever possible, even jerks who you don't think are worthy of your empathy. Everyone has a unique and unlikely story, and everyone who's in a bad mood has a history that has put them there. There are no directives about how to engage people that will work in life, because no two situations are the same.
Exactly! My mindful response to a stressor is what I stated above. If I can do something about it, do something about it and stop worrying. If I can't do anything about it, stop worrying. So when I see someone who is just stressing themselves (And me in the case of Ex 2) out, I can't fathom why they can't just let it go, it seems toxic as fuck.