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comment by lil
lil  ·  2759 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: What should teenagers spend their time doing?

    If you can stand the stigma from your friends, date a chubby chick for your first, its easier. I compare it to riding a bicycle with training wheels. Its just easier and helps build confidence to move on to hotter chicks.
if you take snoodog's advice, you will have begun a process of objectifying and manipulating women with lower self-esteem to build your own. That's the quickest way to becoming a total asshole to yourself and others, so good luck with that. For all we know you might be a chubby girl yourself.

snoodog also gave you some good advice, which is this:

    My advice for starting out is to avoid girls that are "Cool" find girls in the "out" crowd they are searching for relevance just like you are.

so snoo kind of gets it that girls are human beings who are searching for relevance. snoo -- seriously, wtf?

_refugee_ what do you think. See snoo's shit below or above or somewhere on this thread.



_refugee_  ·  2759 days ago  ·  link  ·  

For every guy like snoodog, there's another guy who's actually had a relationship with a woman.

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snoodog  ·  2759 days ago  ·  link  ·  

You aren't the target audience. 15 y/o me would not have been ready for advice deeper than what I offered.

Also there in my experience is no process of objectifying that can be "begun", and no state of asshole that you can arrive at. Both of those are actually natural states were many of us start when we are young and have to dig ourselves out of through wisdom experience and insight.

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lil  ·  2758 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Thanks for responding snoo. I never was a 15 year old boy although I dated a few. I appreciate your first-hand assessment of your former self.

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snoodog  ·  2758 days ago  ·  link  ·  

For some perspective about how much social stigma young men get for even being near bigger women ill share some stories from my youth.

Freshman year in college there was a fat girl that liked my roommate. Our friend group constantly teased him about it even though he had no interest in her and constantly disavowed any association with her.

My best friend once invited a girl who was bigger but who he still swears to this day had skinny friends. She to a party but instead of the skinny friends she shows up with 3 fatter friends. He was so embarrassed I think he hid in his room for most of that party and drank alone. Also the rest of the guys made fun of him for it for years after. Hes married and 30 and he still occasionally brings it up now more to laugh at himself but still.

One of the guys hooked up with a fat girl in our house, forever earned the nickname "Big Game Hunter". Another guy had a thing for bigger girls, he became known as chubby chaser John.

The funny part here is that even the "Forever Alone" socially awkward kids would take pot shots at guys that hooked up with fat chicks and the guys own insecurity about hooking up with bigger girls would exacerbate the problem. There was very much a culture of it never being acceptable to be with a bigger woman and that doing so would make you less of a man.

In my experience for a young man to save face about hooking up with bigger girls it was important to always claim that it happened because he was drunk or to claim that it was just about getting some and then moving on to hotter friends. It was never socially acceptable to be satisfied with dating bigger women.

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lil  ·  2758 days ago  ·  link  ·  

That is so terribly sad for the lonely boys and the bigger women. So sad that people are subject to teasing (adult form of bullying) and can't stand up to the bullies. It reminds me of that wonderful powerful scene from the Best Picture 1955 Oscar-winning movie Marty.

    That night, back in the same lonely rut, Marty realizes that he is giving up a woman whom he not only likes, but who makes him happy. Over the objections of his friends, he dashes to a phone booth to call Clara, who is disconsolately watching television with her parents. When his friend asks what he's doing, Marty bursts out saying:

    You don't like her, my mother don't like her, she's a dog and I'm a fat, ugly man! Well, all I know is I had a good time last night! I'm gonna have a good time tonight! If we have enough good times together, I'm gonna get down on my knees and I'm gonna beg that girl to marry me! If we make a party on New Year's, I got a date for that party. You don't like her? That's too bad!

Any ideas how to teach young people to think for themselves, to respect others, and care about people, not just the container they are stored in?

Snoo - do you think these various guys from your youth mentioned above ever became compassionate mature human beings?

What do you now think of the situations above that you described?

What can be learned?

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snoodog  ·  2758 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Personally I dont think we should expect young people to challenge social norms completely openly and publicly. I think its OK to challenge them a bit around the outskirts, or privately, to test the waters and see how it goes without fully committing to it.

I dont think you are going to eliminate social stigma around being fat, especially not in today's media centric world where people are more body and image conscious than ever before. But I do think that for guys that are willing to challenge the stigma a bit there are opportunities to get some early experience dating and get their social and emotional needs met while meeting someone elses. Because lets be honest young men aren't exactly all that desirable for women either, especially boys that are 15, dont have their money and transportation.

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oyster  ·  2758 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Dude your advice wasn't to make up excuses for why you're dating the chubby girls because your friends will tease you. It was to use chubby girls to build confidence so later you can date hot girls. Advising somebody to use others is a shit thing to do no matter how you want to look at it. It's not meeting her emotional and social needs it's just being an ass. It sure as hell isn't challenging stigma to date the chubby girl then say it's just practice. If you're going to date somebody it should be because you have an actual interest in them. One night stands are for the people you're uninterested in for anything more than a good time.

If somebody wants to be an ass that's their choice but really let's not sugar coat it.

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_refugee_  ·  2754 days ago  ·  link  ·  

IMHO, his post wasn't about how to date women, but how to get laid.

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snoodog  ·  2758 days ago  ·  link  ·  

That's you are opinion, and you are entitled to it. To me it sounds like you describe dating as a one way street where the man is the aggressor and the woman is the victim and I don’t believe that’s at all an accurate representation. Both parties have to agree to the interaction and both parties can break it off at any time. So with the exception of rare cases where something illegal occurs both parties continue the interaction because they get something out of it both parties come out ahead. That doesn't mean you always get everything you want out of the interaction. Maybe she wants more emotional connection and he wants more physical attraction but at the end of the day both get something out of it or the interaction wouldn't have happened.

I argue that doing something that others shame you not to do is challenging the social stigma even if you have to deny it later. If nothing else it gives you an opportunity to see the people you interact with as real people as opposed the stereotypes that others paint them as.

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oyster  ·  2758 days ago  ·  link  ·  

You're trying really hard to see using somebody as an okay thing to do. That's not at all how I describe dating, that's how I describe you pretending you're doing chubby girls a favour.

Convincing somebody you actually like them enough to date them when in reality you are just using them is shitty thing to do. There are 3 kinds of people in this world

1) People who don't know they are assholes and legitimately think they are helping others/doing them favours.

2) People who know they are assholes, accept it and don't pretend like they are doing anybody any favours.

3) People who deep down know they are being assholes but try to justify it by claiming they are doing others favours.

Type 1 and type 2 are something we have all been but type 3 is just an ass in denial. The worst kind.

Edit: I'm just going to clarify here that the accepted understanding of "using somebody" is lying to somebody in order to get something. So don't come back with but like technically we are always using people since we benefit from interactions.

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lil  ·  2757 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Please, please oh please, take your three kinds of people quote and copy it here

where it belongs!
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thenewgreen  ·  2757 days ago  ·  link  ·  

HA! I thought of that post when reading his comment. I remember a friend once saying, "there are two types of people in the world: 1. those that think there are two types of people in the world and 2. those that know better.

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snoodog  ·  2758 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I use a significantly looser definition of "Dating" than you do. You sound like you have been burned in the past and you assume implied deception that I did not intend. One can be very open about having no serious or long term intentions and still "date" by my definition.

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oyster  ·  2758 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    You sound like you have been burned in the past

Heavy eye roll ,could you be more of a dudebro ? Like come on. Actually I hate getting attached and peace out when a guy seems to be getting feelings so not much chance to get burned.

Going on a date implies you are interested in a person plain and simple. Do you think being honest would have worked ? Saying " Hey want to go on a date not because I'm into you but so I can practice talking to girls so I fumble less on the hot chicks ?"

If being honest wouldn't have worked then guess what you're being an asshole in denial.

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snoodog  ·  2758 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Heavy eye roll ,could you be more of a dudebro ? Like come on. Actually I hate getting attached and peace out when a guy seems to be getting feelings so not much chance to get burned.

I was a bit tempted to take a cheap shot at that statement but I genuinely feel sorry that you cant let yourself feel attached to anyone. I never felt any hate or resentment for anyone I've been with. Regrets, sure, but never any resentment.

    Going on a date implies you are interested in a person plain and simple. Do you think being honest would have worked ? Saying " Hey want to go on a date not because I'm into you but so I can practice talking to girls so I fumble less on the hot chicks ?"

Im curious if you think that no date is better than a imperfect date? I don't remember guys exactly lining up to date bigger girls in HS. Young breakups are a normal healthy thing. They happen for all sorts of good and bad reasons. IMO thats how young people learn to navigate the dating world and its good for young people to get as much experience as possible early on when they are more resilient and less capable of hurting each-other. I remember breakups for all sorts of weird reasons like not being cool enough, not having a car, or not getting the approval of the click leader. I don't see how "Im not all that attracted to you" Or "I like Suzie more" outside of the normal realm.

    If being honest wouldn't have worked then guess what you're being an asshole in denial.

If we ever get hubski titles you and @_refuge_@ can pitch in for my "Resident A-Hole" Title. Ill wear it with pride.

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oyster  ·  2757 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Ya I'm not big on pity but you were smart to not take a cheap shot there since that feeling has nothing to do with past dates and everything to do with a dysfunctional childhood. Now you don't have to get into another spiral of denying being a dick. Not sure what your tangent about resentment is here but I go off on tangents to so...eh.

Thing is there would be plenty of assholes, myself included, who I would rather pick because we have no problem admiting what we can be. You on the other hand refuse to accept that lying to somebody about being interested in them is a shitty thing to do.

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snoodog  ·  2757 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I don't really think it matters why you asked someone on date if you go on it its most likely because you are seeking some sort of benefit. I remember when I was younger girls would occasionally go on dates with me to get free dinner or free booze. They didnt really have any interest in me and according to your definition that would have put me on the receiving end of asshole behavior. Despite that I always got something out of it otherwise I wouldn't have gone. A date was always good for a self esteem boost, minimal social boost, practice and sometimes I even got introduced to other friends that liked me more. Reflecting back they definitely got more out of it than I did but those dates were still preferable to not having any dates. Net effect was that both people came out ahead although some people did better than others.

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oyster  ·  2757 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    They didnt really have any interest in me and according to your definition that would have put me on the receiving end of asshole behavior.

A lot of people consider using guys for free stuff to be asshole behaviour. Also I feel like what you call dating really isn't anymore. It's hanging out and having casual sex which is a hell of a lot more honest. Dating implies actual interest beyond hanging out and screwing.

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snoodog  ·  2757 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Yes this, we can finally agree. My intended advice was that its OK to netflix and chill with a fat chick. And that you can live that socal stigma down and still come out ahead. IMO all dating at that age level is casual anyway.

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oyster  ·  2757 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Yaa we stopped being ashamed of casual sex years ago so nobody really bothers to pretend it's dating anymore.

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arguewithatree  ·  2759 days ago  ·  link  ·  

so why not start from neutral ground by treating chubby chicks like the people they are rather than digging yourself into a(n ass)hole to start with

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user-inactivated  ·  2759 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I'm not _refugee_, and I'm a dude, and I'm not one for giving advice, but I'm still friends with all but one of my exes in the sense that we hang out regularly, if we're nearby, or correspond regularly, if not, so maybe I can offer a useful counterpoint. Men and women are mostly alike, the differences being in plumbing and social programming. The plumbing is relatively intuitive, just don't take your ques from pornography because what works for the camera doesn't necessarily work for people. The social programming isn't. What you want to do, when you're young and inexperienced, is find someone warped in much the same way as you, so you have enough of a rapport that you can be forgiven for your confusion. You won't be able to rely on them forever, because as people get more sure of themselves they feel less a need to perform themselves, but as a teenager subcultural markers are a decent guide. Don't be afraid to approach people; most of us who are alone would rather not be (some of us who aren't alone would rather be; hence "all my exes"; but that's another comment).

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