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comment by thenewgreen
thenewgreen  ·  3533 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Meta-Communication: Trying to Understand Comments on Hubski

Quatrarius

-I think he will see it because of that shout-out above. I think, I'm not sure how the functionality is set up these days to be honest. (mk?)

Your assessment of my reply to 8bit is somewhat right. I was attempting to mock the existence of the word-counter at all and it was a bit of a throw back to the era of having assignments with word counts. You remember those right? Write a 1000 word essay on the Inca and you would write, "the Inca were a people that lived a very, very, very long time ago."

Lil's suggestions were spot on and they equate to what we call "probing questions," in sales. The use of them is to get to the "true objection."

I'm sorry if I contributed at all to you having a negative experience. I dig all of you in that thread and hope we can all be pals. I know we can all coexist peacefully.





user-inactivated  ·  3533 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    I know we can all coexist peacefully.

Why do some of you find this so difficult...? Sticks and stones.

galen  ·  3533 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I'm inferring from your punctuation that you mean to imply we oughtn't find this so difficult, is that reasonable? What lies behind your opinion that conflicts are so easily avoidable? I understand the wisdom implied by "sticks and stones" is simple, but I find implementing it to be fairly difficult.

user-inactivated  ·  3533 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Yes. Conflicts are avoidable on hubski/the internet because there aren't any conflicts. Conflicts are things that cause tangible problems ... nothing that happens on hubski can possibly cause a tangible problem in my real life, unless I let it. The site might make me happy/sad/angry, but I'm an unemotional person so I don't bother with all that except when I want to.

In real life, you didn't ask, but whatever, it's a bit different, but only to the extent that you make it so. I've always deeply believed in sticks and stones. I had glasses in sixth grade, before I joined the football team and got contacts, and I spent most of my time reading because everyone around me was an idiot. So I was bullied every once in a while, not in any serious way, or by anyone that mattered. But I just sort of stared at them and wondered why they were talking at me until they wandered off [it helps to be arrogant as fuck]. I dunno maybe I'm an alien but in my experience conflicts are (almost always) two-sided. If one side is like fuck conflict, it vanishes. This does not apply in the Middle East, but it does to, like, being a teenager, or a hubski user.

So yeah. Long-winded. What you let hurt you, hurts you; only that.

galen  ·  3529 days ago  ·  link  ·  

OK, basically, my issue with this is that it doesn't work when it really matters. I'll explain.

I agree that nothing on the 'ski can cause a tangible problem unless I let it. However: for me, the reason that I sometimes can't walk away from conflicts is that they tend to arise when I care a lot about someone. For example, the reason that Quatrarius's sarcastic reply to my comment stung so much is that I care kind of a lot about his opinion (also on some level I knew he was right, at least in terms of intended message).

This ties into an exchange I had with eightbitsamurai: I was having issues with one of my friends being a jerk about the music I was producing, and 8bit said something to the effect of "Simple. Don't be friends with him." I badged that comment because it was so simple, yet so effective, but eventually I realized that I can't just not be friends with him. I value his friendship, and, quite frankly, his opinion about my music. That's why I cared about him insulting it.

If I didn't care about someone's opinion, I would just ignore it. But when I do care, and they hide their criticisms behind insults, it's painful. I can't ignore that.

lil

lil  ·  3529 days ago  ·  link  ·  

1.

    also on some level I knew he was right, at least in terms of intended message)
We sometimes get even more defensive if we suspect there's some truth in the perceived attack.

Today someone I loved said something mean and sarcastic to me. It's hard, but I am trying to see those comments as an expression of his pain (which it was). The sarcasm spreads the pain to others. I did say, "Are you being sarcastic?" He said, "Yes." I didn't say, "I'm sorry you're feeling pain."

2.

    If I didn't care about someone's opinion, I would just ignore it. But when I do care, and they hide their criticisms behind insults, it's painful.
You care about what you care about. Not caring is the real enemy. When we care less, we become less kind. Q mentions in his comments: "I didn't view you as someone to be nice to." -- He saw you as not being worthy of care. In fact, he diminished himself, isolated himself, became less humane. When he, in this case, stopped caring, he engaged in random acts of meanness. This made him even more unlovable, thus reinforcing his low opinion of himself.

3. But there's only so much we can care about without exploding or going mad. ("Humankind cannot bear very much reality" - T. S. Eliot)

4. And of course you can't just dump a friend because he doesn't like your music. But a little bit of your friendship dies. Your sense of oneness and sharing is no longer pure. The friend has expressed divergent and contrary opinions. It is a new friendship. To be a healthy friendship you have to "respect his opinion" -- (to refer to another conversation). By that I mean, let him have his opinion. It can differ from yours. But you are hurt because you want to be loved and appreciated.

At some point, perhaps much much later, you'll realize that not liking your music does not mean he doesn't like you. In fact he feels enough trust in the friendship to express his feelings to you. If you want to know more, say "Tell me more." Whatever he doesn't like, it's about the music. You are not your music -- but you don't know this yet. so you felt hurt.

Eventually, learn to surround yourself with people who care about your feelings.

Hubski is mostly safe, but not entirely.

If the waters get rough, look around and there might be a lifeguard in this ocean of thought.

user-inactivated  ·  3529 days ago  ·  link  ·  

That's a good issue. In my mind, though, you can't really have it "both ways." I genuinely stop caring about people if they act in such a manner that caring about them would hurt me. It's almost tautological, to my mind. I value someone's friendship because it is worth valuing, and then if they insult my music in needlessly hurtful ways, I devalue their friendship.

Maybe not in a binary sense from 1 to 0 immediately, but continuously, such that if they needlessly hurt me I assign their opinion a lower impact and the next time they do whatever they did to hurt me, it automatically hurts me less because I care less.

Time is all we've got and I choose who I spend mine with very carefully.

galen  ·  3529 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Maybe not in a binary sense from 1 to 0 immediately

For me this is the crucial part. I can't immediately stop caring about someone just to avoid a conflict. It takes place over time, and in the interim you have to have other, more interpersonally-focused strategies for dealing with conflict.

galen  ·  3532 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I am still trying to pin down the best way to explain why I disagree with this. Expect a reply in the next few days-- if you don't get one, PM me (if you care).

user-inactivated  ·  3532 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Sure.

elizabeth  ·  3533 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    I know we can all coexist peacefully.

If you were to make this happen, what would it mean for you personally?

(sorry had to google probing questions and try to apply my newfound knowledge. Interesting stuff, I bet you're a beast of a salesman. I've been noticing how good you are at connecting with other people and keeping track of everybody's personal stuff around here.)

thenewgreen  ·  3533 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I'm not sure if I'm a "beast," but I do think I am well suited to it. There are those that stumble in to sales as a profession and then there are those that choose it and respect it for the art/science that it is. I try and get better at it all the time. I leave every call and self-critique by contemplating the things I feel I did right and the things I would have done differently. I would suggest that to anyone, in any profession. -When you leave a meeting ask yourself those questions.

lil  ·  3532 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    I leave every call and self-critique by contemplating the things I feel I did right and the things I would have done differently.
Good point tng.

I engaged in this conversation with galen immediately, because he asked me, "How could I have better dealt with this situation?" We contribute to our own problems all the time, but it's far easier to see other people's contribution than it is to see our own. More often than we realize, the antidote is to stop taking the poison. I think that is essentially what flagamuffin is saying.

ButterflyEffect  ·  3533 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    I was attempting to mock the existence of the word-counter at all and it was a bit of a throw back to the era of having assignments with word counts.

Earlier today I had to write a 750-850 word essay on a film I watched. Could have got the point across in a lot less words, and the fact that there's a word-count range is even more aggravating than saying write at least this much. It's everywhere too, between that and page counts...at least Cosmos is on.

Anyway, good thread galen. I think it's easy to forget that there are other, real, people behind words being said. Especially on the internet. Sometimes it's easy to ascribe those words to malice, or an attack on our beliefs or the words we have said and then become firmer in talking with the other person. Those are some great ways in dealing with this, understanding, context, and attempting to be empathetic can take you a long ways and I think is something we all struggle with.

mk  ·  3533 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I don't think that shoutouts work when you've been muted, but I'll have to double check to be sure. Your shoutout should work, however. Unless you've been muted, of course. You can PM those that have muted you. I've heard good arguments for and against this.

coffeesp00ns  ·  3533 days ago  ·  link  ·  

dubya, always with words of wisdom.

Cumol  ·  3533 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Dubya = bush?

lil  ·  3532 days ago  ·  link  ·  

yes, Dubya stands for W. He was George W. Bush. His father, was George H. W. Bush. Also the prez.

Speaking of the prez, watch Obama's speech at the White House Press Corps dinner.

OftenBen  ·  3533 days ago  ·  link  ·  

100% Unrelated, but that dubya quote is awesome.

galen  ·  3533 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Kept my sister & I laughing for some time.