deep breath eightbitsamurai - I have a feeling some lines of this you're going to love and some you are going to hate. It's even better if you listen to an aging white guy read it on umano
- In a time where we accuse each other daily of all sorts of dubious motives toward the movement, these three men serve as a narrative of not just where we're are but how much we have left to figure out.
As long a we're supposed to be hating on this article, I don't think that three males likely are representative of the female half of the "american black experience."
Hahahaha, that's perfect! I still think to disagree with her on that, though.
(I'll elaborate later, I just woke up)
Edit: I didn't actually have too much to say, but mornings are mornings -- training to be an early bird isn't easy.
I meant to say that the fact that the article was written by a black woman does mean the article is written from the female point of view, but it doesn't make what she said about the three men making a triangle representing the black experience necessarily accurate. The black male experience, maybe. But she was talking like men could represent the women's half of the it. I'm no black female, but I'd imagine what they experience is different than what the men experience. There are differences regardless of race.
- I wondered, and eventually asked, where she, as a person who would never experience blackness, found the ground to even question his and claim ownership over any part of him. She wasn’t the only one but what exactly was she (and all the others) pointing out besides the fact that he wasn’t “bad” enough to be a real (read: thug ass) black man?
First off, saying "this person is a fraud, never lived a hard life, and is faking it as to be popular" is not claiming ownership over somebody in any form or way. Secondly, it seems from the phrasing that this person never mentioned the rapper's "blackness".
This seems to point to there being two different view of what it means to be "black", and that both people are looking at the situation from different points of view.
The first being poverty, thug lyfe, chainz, rap, and so on. Big tough person who lived a hard life and went to prison. The stereotype you see pretty universally across media.
The second being a person who is black and has experienced the reactions people have to you on a subconscious level through society.
The first is something it is possible not to be "black". The second, however, is not. Perhaps the author would have considered it if the person hadn't jumped to "you aren't black, so you can't say anything about black people" mentality.
- People point to where he grew up and create stories of a middle class upbringing despite him repeatedly speaking on supporting his single, chronically ill mother as a teen and borrowing his aunt and uncle’s car to fake stunt.
Another good response to the person talking about how the one guy is a fraud. Man, so many good things can happen when you don't jump to using race to hurt others arguments.
- It’s a lot to constantly deal with as a black man, but isn’t that the story of our very existence as people of color? Constantly having to prove we are human and also black, all at once.
No. We are not living in the sixties. Nobody, outside the small enclaves of KKK members who are shunned by society, considers black people as inhuman. Society does not treat black people as animals, as less than human, or any of such things.
There are a thousand words that would work very well here, "human" is not one of them. Exaggerating a point to the nth degree to make things sound oh so horrible isn't cool. It's even worse when you don't need to exaggerate to make similar points.
- You don’t have to be called a “nigger” at a fashion party, you can simply be called “uncouth”—both achieve the same STFU.
The person nails the subject much better later, although still not too well, when talking about one of the other rappers being considered "uncouth" by rich people. It's that stereotype, that "blackness" as the author calls it, that needs to go away. Not an impression that black people are less than human.
Fight that impression, and you will find that there is no progress to be made, because everyone already agrees with you.
- His wild example of being protected by his doormen and driver is not just mindless rich people talk, it is his very reality. He acknowledges their existence in a way the white people he's interacting with never would!
- I don't need to tell you that rich white people do not think of their servants with such regard.
This should speak for its self.
- It's that stereotype, that "blackness" as the author calls it, that needs to go away. Not an impression that black people are less than human.
I...I don't understand how these are mutually exclusive.
Reddit has a literal "chimpire". But you're saying that:
- No. We are not living in the sixties. Nobody, outside the small enclaves of KKK members who are shunned by society, considers black people as inhuman. Society does not treat black people as animals, as less than human, or any of such things.
I mean, holy shit, dood. How many times does a Black guy have to get gunned down by a cop on the street before we take a step back and think, "hmm, maybe the way we're treating these people is a little inhuman"?
Also:
- No.
is super obnoxious. How the fuck would you know, man? You've been Black for a day, I take it? Where do you define being treated as human? Is your literal definition of the term purposefully facetious? Get followed around in every gas station you've ever been to, etc. etc. I've said it on Hubski a million times before, and then when you feel like a second class citizen, define to me again what being treated like a "human" is.
- Exaggerating a point to the nth degree
No. < - And this is purposeful.
- Fight that impression, and you will find that there is no progress to be made, because everyone already agrees with you.
No. Again. Let me take a page from the "SJW" handbook. "It's not my job to educate you." By "you," I mean it's not my job to be some Black Experience preacher that needs to explain to White people all the time why they shouldn't treat Black people the way they do. It's not my job to fight any sort of impression. It's not my job to explain why rap isn't the reason SAE talked about hanging niggers from trees, and it sure as shit is not my job to explain why I don't "talk black". It's their job to accept who the hell I am, and the Black experience as a whole - whether it's the Kendrick experience, or the Drake one, or the Kanye one.
I mean, you're right if you say that I do it all the time anyways, which I do, but it's from a place of futility and a slight retching sound that I make in the back of my throat whenever I get online.
Also, go to Ferguson, please tell me that the police officers there agree with me.
I would go on, but really you should just peruse right over here and spend some time seeing the shit that we put up with on the daily, bruh.
- Reddit has a literal "chimpire". But you're saying that:
Yeah, reddit also has a sub about pics of dead kids, beating women, and so on.
They are universally shunned, and nowhere in the regular part of the nation are such ideals common. Nobody considers them as good.
- How many times does a Black guy have to get gunned down by a cop on the street before we take a step back and think, "hmm, maybe the way we're treating these people is a little inhuman"?
When I hear about someone gunned down on the street, I think of things like the steriotypes that drive people to actions, I think of the complex interactions between police and the people they are over. I think of how and why these things happen, when everyone involved believes they are right.
I do not start yelling about how we treat black people as inhuman. Society doesn't do that, and it never will again in the future do so, barring the collapse of society.
- Where do you define being treated as human?
See: holocaust, slavery, and other situations. When people have all freedom taken from them and are treated as if nothing about them matters, as if every part of them is scum and nobody should give them any moral consideration.
That is what an animal is. What a non-human is. Cases such as how race is in modern society are not cases of treating anyone like an animal.
- is super obnoxious. How the fuck would you know, man? You've been Black for a day, I take it?
You share the same category of thought as the writer of this article. Attack the points, not the person. "You aren't black, you don't know" is not a valid argument, and never will be.
- I mean it's not my job to be some Black Experience preacher that needs to explain to White people all the time why they shouldn't treat Black people the way they do.
It's our jobs to take actions that lead to a better society. I don't give two fucks who you are, or what your race is.
- It's their job to accept who the hell I am, and the Black experience as a whole - whether it's the Kendrick experience, or the Drake one, or the Kanye one.
The Nazis didn't end the holocaust on their own. It's not anyone's job to prevent bad things from occurring in society. It's not anyone's job to protect the weak, or to go out to fight in wars to protect the nation you are in from external aggressors. It's not anyone's job to sacrifice what is theirs for the betterment of everyone.
You can't look at a pile of shit, stare at it very hard, and expect it to go away. The things I say in my post above are things I expect of everyone, in all their interactions, as a "this is who you should be". Not something I expect of black people, or of any single race.
People don't change without information, people don't change without someone pushing the right button that inspires it. People aren't going to change if you simply expect them to, or think they will out of human decency.
We aren't enlightened perfect beings in a world where there is a clear good and bad. We are animals with tools. Change doesn't, and will never come through the sudden realization of a population, it will come through a combination of the hard work of a small few, along with the facts lining up with them rather than the population that can, and will, do everything they can to resist change.
You see it with global warming, you see it with gay marriage, you see it with trans people, you see it with vegans, you see it with a thousand other groups. Each one thinks society is wrong, and believes they are correct. It's not up to society to change to their whims, it's up to them to show and prove their morality is the right one.
And I am talking about an ideal, I don't expect us all going on crusades for justice or anything. The perfect person doesn't exist, and we all make mistakes and have flaws. However, when you are taking time out of your day to correct someone, and scold them for something like considering a rapper flawed, do so in a constructive and progressive way, not in a demeaning and regressive one.
- Also, go to Ferguson, please tell me that the police officers there agree with me.
I would be willing to bet money that not a single person in furgeson considers black people as less than human. I am willing to bet that instead they will talk about the black people being poor and ending up in jail on their own merit. nobody considers themselves the bad guy. Arguing that "society treats black people as inhuman" is going to change nobodies minds, and it will make an impression on nobody.
The issue isn't people treating black people as inhuman, as animals. Attacking that issue will never accomplish anything, outside of making the population that already stands for equality outraged. Congrats, nobodies minds have changed, and people now dislike each other even more!
And I am not interested in your video of a single person in a single situation. I have seen actual, well researched, studies, that say everything I need to hear about discrimination.
My point isn't that such things do not exist, but instead that ranting and raving about how society treats black people as inhuman and how wrong society is will fix nothing, accomplish nothing, and lead to a society that is stuck in a ditch while yelling at each other.
It's weird to me because you're saying "we" and "us" and "people" but you can't get specific to save your life. It's everybody's job, but to you it's also nobody's job.
- Yeah, reddit also has a sub about pics of dead kids, beating women, and so on.
They are universally shunned, and nowhere in the regular part of the nation are such ideals common. Nobody considers them as good.
Don't give me that shit, they all have large numbers of subscribers and it's the "front page of the internet." Please tell me who "nobody" is, again, because you're speaking in swaths. If they were universally shunned, they'd get shut down, and they wouldn't have subscribers to begin with. Can't have one when the other exists.
- When I hear about someone gunned down on the street, I think of things like the steriotypes that drive people to actions, I think of the complex interactions between police and the people they are over. I think of how and why these things happen
THEY HAPPEN BECAUSE THEY THINK WE'RE LESS THEN HUMAN, HOLY SHIT. Do I really have to pull out the numerous, NUMEROUS texts and emails found amongst police that LITERALLY call Black people animals? The Telemundo guy that compared Michelle Obama to an ape from Planet of the Apes? That's not Reddit, Bio, you can't really cover that shit up!
- "You aren't black, you don't know" is not a valid argument, and never will be.
BUT YOU DON'T FUCKING KNOW AND YOU NEVER WILL. It's easy to play the "reasonable man with facts and knowledge!", it happened on Hubski before and I fucking left for a while because of it. You will. literally. Never. Know. I understand this is upsetting: it's the same reason #blackgirlsrock got coopted with #whitegirlsrock, or why #blacklivesmatter got coopted with #alllivesmatter. It's like telling me all about riding a rollercoaster when you've never been on one in your life.
- See: holocaust, slavery, and other situations. When people have all freedom taken from them and are treated as if nothing about them matters, as if every part of them is scum and nobody should give them any moral consideration.
That is what an animal is. What a non-human is. Cases such as how race is in modern society are not cases of treating anyone like an animal.
Okay, so you are being purposefully facetious and pedantic. At least we got that out of the way.
- People don't change without information, people don't change without someone pushing the right button that inspires it. People aren't going to change if you simply expect them to, or think they will out of human decency.
Every person that's stepped up to make change got shot, lol. I've done my part.
- It's not up to society to change to their whims, it's up to them to show and prove their morality is the right one.
Oh my God. Acceptance is not "proving that my gayness is the right morality." It's "fucking accept my gayness and stop being a bigoted piece of shit." It''s not "I need to prove that you should treat me better as a Black person", it's "you better fucking treat me better as a Black person".
- However, when you are taking time out of your day to correct someone, and scold them for something like considering a rapper flawed, do so in a constructive and progressive way, not in a demeaning and regressive one.
Ah, the Common perspective. The rapper, since I'm ABSOLUTELY SURE you've never heard of him. All "hug the white people so they feel better about themselves, that'll fix things." Maaaaybe in hell.
- I would be willing to bet money that not a single person in furgeson considers black people as less than human.
- My point isn't that such things do not exist, but instead that ranting and raving about how society treats black people as inhuman and how wrong society is will fix nothing, accomplish nothing, and lead to a society that is stuck in a ditch while yelling at each other.
Alright, well you've bitched enough. What's your idea of fixing and accomplishing things, Bio? The riots aren't enough? The protests aren't enough? Asking to be treated like an equal, to not get stopped for walking, or eating, or breathing while Black, that's too much for you? It doesn't accomplish anything? Then what does? Because you need to stop putting the onus of discrimination on the people that have been systematically oppressed.
- THEY HAPPEN BECAUSE THEY THINK WE'RE LESS THEN HUMAN, HOLY SHIT.
ARGUMENT IN CAPITAL LETTERS MAKES ME SOUND ANGRY AND CORRECT!
- Do I really have to pull out the numerous, NUMEROUS texts and emails found amongst police that LITERALLY call Black people animals?
There has, and will be, people who do think black people are animals. There will be these people in the police, in schools, everywhere.
These people aren't the problem. These people do not have hold of the majority of the opinion of the US, or the majority opinion of the police. The most I can imagine being common is a "like animals" comparison to refer to people in the ghettos, which isn't literally calling people animals.
- The Telemundo guy that compared Michelle Obama to an ape from Planet of the Apes? That's not Reddit, Bio, you can't really cover that shit up!
You are talking about situations that are the odd man out, the strange people, the people regarded as wrong, and only have support inside of their own little echo-chamber.
These attitudes exist, but they are not the baseline. They are not common. They are not the definition. These people, with time, are going to disappear and fade away, these people are not the problem that causes the majority of issues black people face.
- BUT YOU DON'T FUCKING KNOW AND YOU NEVER WILL.
YOU WEREN'T THERE MAN!
Saying "you don't know" does not change an argument. It doesn't change the point.
All the examples you point out can be shut down with actual argument. With actual, constructive, counter-points that, while they base themselves in "you don't know man!" are actually logical, and actually make sense.
Say "YOU DONT KNOW" as much as you want, until you can back that up with the reason why things are different, simply saying "you are wrong" in a different way, will accomplish nothing.
- It's like telling me all about riding a rollercoaster when you've never been on one in your life.
I am not telling you what it feel like to be black. I am not concerned about what it feels like to be black.
- Okay, so you are being purposefully facetious
No, I am assigning "treating people as inhuman" it's proper value, rather than dragging the term down to mean less than it is.
- Every person that's stepped up to make change got shot
And we are all better off for it. It's why we call them heroes.
Secondly, I am talking about the idea that it's not someone's job to inform others, or to change the minds of others. I am not saying you have to become a well known or popular civil rights leader. And if you are in a situation where you are under personal threat to stand up, don't. There is nothing wrong with it.
- . Acceptance is not "proving that my gayness is the right morality." It's "fucking accept my gayness and stop being a bigoted piece of shit."
Those are the exact same thing. Morality is rule by the majority, and rule by force. You will follow these laws, or we will punish you.
All ideas have to fight to become the majority, and in that fight they prove their worth. It is the "natural" mechanism society uses to stop things like scientology from becoming popular, while still allowing the things that actually benefit society to become part of it. Allowing change while filtering the shit.
- Ah, the Common perspective. The rapper, since I'm ABSOLUTELY SURE you've never heard of him. All "hug the white people so they feel better about themselves, that'll fix things." Maaaaybe in hell.
I don't know the majority of musicians. The only bands I have listened to in bulk in the last five years have been the Mighty Mighty Bosstones, and a bit of Greenday.
And, yes, a society that is constructive is one that is better than one that is destructive. There is a good reason MLK became famous while Malcom X did not. MLK pushed for peaceful and understanding rebellion. Malcom X went for the angry, rebellious, positions. Being constructive does not mean telling people they aren't bad, it means telling people what they are doing needs to change, and holding that position, while not coming to hate the people in the process.
- [You'd probably lose that bet.](http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/07/30/gates.police.apology/_
The first line of that article is this:
- The Boston police officer who sent a mass e-mail in which he compared Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates Jr. to a "banana-eating jungle monkey" has apologized, saying he's not a racist.
I was here thinking you were going to link to a police officer who thought all black people were animals, and deserved to be shot in the street.
Instead, you link to one who doesn't understand the implication of what he saw as a joke, and doesn't understand the harm it can do.
- I authored," Barrett said on CNN. "I am not a racist. I did not intend any racial bigotry, harm or prejudice in my words. I sincerely apologize that these words have been received as such. I truly apologize to all."
- Alright, well you've bitched enough. What's your idea of fixing and accomplishing things, Bio?
- The riots aren't enough? The protests aren't enough?
OK, going to address this first. Riots and protests are not the way to go about things. (well, yes, protests, but not ones over a federal case where the police officer was not found guilty, and not accompanied by riots coopted by people looking to loot homes and businesses)
- Asking to be treated like an equal, to not get stopped for walking, or eating, or breathing while Black, that's too much for you?
You are turning me into straw, it seems.
I am one of those darn people who just fight for the middle ground while still being racist, I guess? "Why do those black people hurt themselves with their protests in the streets". "I felt so sorry for those poor black people with those MLK days".
That isn't me, and never will be.
- It doesn't accomplish anything? Then what does? Because you need to stop putting the onus of discrimination on the people that have been systematically oppressed.
It is not the onus of discrimination, but instead the onus of ending it. And it doesn't only fall to the oppressed, it falls to anyone who is aware, and believes it is wrong. There are probably black people out there who very much do not fall into that category.
The only think that will bring about change in our society is a change in it's culture. Education, as much as you seem to hate it, is the thing that will cause people to change their minds. The same tactics atheism uses, are the tactics civil rights should use.
Instead of protests against a controversial case, protests should bring awareness to things like the DOJ reports that very clearly show a systematic discrimination against black people in at least one town of the United States. Protests should bring minds to situations where they see and know what happens when they tell the jokes like that police officer told.
The key to change is awareness and education. Make people aware of what is wrong, and tell them why it is. Do not tell people "you can't say this person isn't legitamate because you aren't black" instead tell them "The things that black people face exist regardless of wealth." (or similar).
And change comes slowly, a protest isn't going to summon change like you summon a bird out of a hate. Protests set that little seed of doubt a person has in their worldview, and that seed will grow with the time and effort people put into it, but it will die the moment something happens to reinforce a person's worldview.
I do look at this whole situation as I look at religion, as I see how action can be taken to change the views of those who are religious.
Look at /r/atheism, and the reception it has gotten. Do you think they have been successful in changing minds? Their ranting, raving, insulting, and attacking, has accomplished nothing, and hurt their cause.
Instead, a calm, honest, and open discussion among those who have yet to discuss these things in a way that encourages people to listen, and accept the ideas you are telling them will inspire change.
No, it won't be fast. No, it probably won't happen this generation, and yes, people will always disagree, fight change, and so on.
No process is instant, and no good thing takes no work to achieve. The most we can do is be open, honest, and kind. Again, kind doesn't mean you can't tell someone they are wrong, it just means you have to do it in a way that ensures they will be receptive to it. Plant seeds of dissent, don't smash the oppressors.
- Every person that's stepped up to make change got shot, lol. I've done my part.
- And we are all better off for it. It's why we call them heroes.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
I recognize that the costs/benefits analysis of this discussion does not support my efforts in answering you, but I'm going to try.
I further recognize that there's likely to be a swamp of death-by-1000-cuts line-by-line parsing so that larger issues can be ignored in favor of minutiae, but I accept that.
In amongst several thousand words of cross-purpose antagonism, there's this shining, rhetorical lodestone that sweeps away all the chaff, all the bluster, all the willfully ignorant sophistry so I'm gonna fish it out, run it under the tap and put it under the light because by damn, you might just understand.
HERE IT IS: The less horrible the majority acts, the fewer heroes the minority has to sacrifice.
You seem quite positive and honorific about the sacrifices oppressed groups have made to lessen their oppression. However, you lack sympathy for the idea that sacrifices should not be required. To you, it's an abstraction: the onus is on the oppressed to rise up and demand their fair share. To 8bit, he's 21 times more likely to get shot by a cop than you.
This accounts for the unsympathetic reception you've received: The white person's role is to accept the mild inconvenience of vigilance towards racism. The black person's role is, according to you, martyrdom. The issue is compounded by the ready evidence of martyrdom amongst the black community and the scarce evidence of its effectiveness. Rodney King was 23 years ago. Detroit was 25 years before that (and then 25 years before that). The Emancipation Proclamation was 150 years ago - your arbitrary cut-off of when we started treating blacks as "human". Yet it's still substantially harder to thrive as a minority in the United States than as the majority.
Minorities definitely serve to benefit the most from equal treatment. From a "rational markets" perspective, the onus of transformation is on them. But rational markets are pure evil from an ethical standpoint: if I'm seven times less likely to go to jail and 21 times less likely to get shot over it, isn't the onus on me to do something about it?
Particularly when all I have to do is not be a douche and accept that sometimes I should go out of my way to be sensitive to people different than me? "No process is instant, and no good thing takes no work to achieve." Yes. Absolutely. But holy fuck. There are people in trenches and people in lawn chairs and sometimes it's good for the soul to recognize which one you are and pick up a spade. Or at least grab an extra beer from the fridge if you're going there anyway.
- The less horrible the majority acts, the fewer heroes the minority has to sacrifice.
Hah, still remember how to quote on this site. Been a while.
This statement is an obvious one, it is like saying "if the sky was red, fewer people would need large planes with which to paint the sky"
It doesn't change that sacrifice is required to inspire change. People have to stand up for what they believe in if they want to inspire progress. I am not saying this must be black people, but I would guess that the vast majority of people who care enough about the issues facing black communities are black themselves.
- However, you lack sympathy for the idea that sacrifices should not be required.
In an ideal world, nobody would ever have to work a day, make any sacrifices, or ever do anything. That isn't this world.
- The Emancipation Proclamation was 150 years ago - your arbitrary cut-off of when we started treating blacks as "human". Yet it's still substantially harder to thrive as a minority in the United States than as the majority.
In 150 years we have gone from treating a group of people as less than human to having large and society wide discussions on how we are not properly giving them access to resources, and that they are being targeted more often by police.
I understand that it still isn't truly "right". I understand that there is still more to go, and I understand the frustration around the lack of progress in change in recent years. However, change is something that is slow, especially when regarding culture. These events have and will continue to chip away and cause progress towards a more equal and better society.
- if I'm seven times less likely to go to jail and 21 times less likely to get shot over it, isn't the onus on me to do something about it?
Yes, because if you don't, nobody else is going to. This isn't a matter of what's fair, it's a matter of what works.
- Particularly when all I have to do is not be a douche and accept that sometimes I should go out of my way to be sensitive to people different than me?
All this talk about how white people should be doing more, and this is what you say is all people have to do?
This is nothing. This is the bare minimum I would expect from anyone out there. What I talk about when I mean "going out to change the world" I mean heading out and protesting, hitting the streets, yelling, making noise, making yourself heard and in the public eye. Real activism.
You doing this isn't going to stop police, it's not going to stop the KKK, it's not going to stop cultures in Charleston from stirring up a massive identity around fear and hatred. It's lazy, and that's what I mean. The vast majority of people are lazy, and aren't going to stand up or try to cause change. Doing that is left to those motivated to do so.
So I'm done with you because you still haven't given me anything that doesn't strike me as garbage spewing from the never-ending wardrobe that is your mouth, but this:
- And, yes, a society that is constructive is one that is better than one that is destructive. There is a good reason MLK became famous while Malcom X did not. MLK pushed for peaceful and understanding rebellion. Malcom X went for the angry, rebellious, positions. Being constructive does not mean telling people they aren't bad, it means telling people what they are doing needs to change, and holding that position, while not coming to hate the people in the process.
Is proof to me you know nothing. MLK was a radical. He's been White-Washed in such a way that people like you parrot the "he was about peace" blah-blah-bullshit. Read and weep, bro.
And since you're so big on MLK, here, read my favorite quote from him!
- I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.
I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that law and order exist for the purpose of establishing justice and that when they fail in this purpose they become the dangerously structured dams that block the flow of social progress. I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that the present tension in the South is a necessary phase of the transition from an obnoxious negative peace, in which the Negro passively accepted his unjust plight, to a substantive and positive peace, in which all men will respect the dignity and worth of human personality. Actually, we who engage in nonviolent direct action are not the creators of tension. We merely bring to the surface the hidden tension that is already alive. We bring it out in the open, where it can be seen and dealt with. Like a boil that can never be cured so long as it is covered up but must be opened with all its ugliness to the natural medicines of air and light, injustice must be exposed, with all the tension its exposure creates, to the light of human conscience and the air of national opinion before it can be cured.
I'm genuinely surprised that everyone hadn't done this long before this thread.
Dank meme. What browser do you use to make the checkboxes display such? I've not seen that before.
EDODITOT: Dodanonkok momemome. Wowhohatot bobrorowowsoseror dodo you usose toto momakoke tothohe cochohecockokboboxoxesos dodisospoplolay sosucochoh? I'vove nonotot soseenon tothohatot bobefoforore.
- Is proof to me you know nothing. MLK was a radical. He's been White-Washed in such a way that people like you parrot the "he was about peace"
He was about "peace", non-violent protest specifically.
MLK is known for the message of standing up for what you believe in without attack. He was a radical in his time, I do not even begin to deny that.
- I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice
See, I know of this speech, and I it is actually one of the speeches from MLK that I remembered the most. Notice he talks about order. He is talking about people who act as the quotes I gave above, people who would say "why don't those poor black people just stop protesting".
I am not calling for an end to protesting. I am not saying that people shouldn't be angry, and shouldn't try and fight for what they believe in (and by fight I do not mean violent fighting).
- Actually, we who engage in nonviolent direct action are not the creators of tension. We merely bring to the surface the hidden tension that is already alive. We bring it out in the open, where it can be seen and dealt with. Like a boil that can never be cured so long as it is covered up but must be opened with all its ugliness to the natural medicines of air and light, injustice must be exposed, with all the tension its exposure creates, to the light of human conscience and the air of national opinion before it can be cured.
He didn't stand to demean, to attack, or to push others down or tell them they were horrible. He stood for raising awareness for a cause through protest. Through educating people, through planting said seed in their mind that something is wrong. That something needs to change.
- Like a boil that can never be cured so long as it is covered up but must be opened with all its ugliness to the natural medicines of air and light, injustice must be exposed, with all the tension its exposure creates, to the light of human conscience and the air of national opinion before it can be cured.
Also, I live in NC and I often travel to remote parts of SC for work. That video of the guy in Alabama isn't a "one off" unusual experience. It's very much real, prevalent and an everyday experience for many people because of the amount of pigment in their skin.
Edit: Based on your profile, which says, "hide, hide from the dissenting opinions." I have to assume that you purposefully try and take the counter-argument. Which, is essentially the definition of trolling, right? Because if you find that you are always holding the opposite opinion of those around you, you can pretty much come to one of three conclusions:
1. I'm in the wrong place
2. Everyone else is crazy
3. I'm trolling
- I live in NC and I often travel to remote parts of SC for work. That video of the guy in Alabama isn't a "one off" unusual experience. It's very much real, prevalent and an everyday experience for many people because of the amount of pigment in their skin.
As you know I live in MI and have my whole life. I've also spent a significant amount of time in NC, because I have family there. I would say that both places have a lot of racists, but there are qualitative differences in the way racism manifests itself in the two places. In MI, there are groups who feel comfortable among themselves being racist, so that when there are only friends around, the racist guys let their guard down, but you rarely see it in public. In NC, I've had conversations with people whom I never met before that will say things like (and this is a direct quote), "I'm not really a fan of the blacks." There, it's taken as axiomatic (at least in the small towns) that whites can commiserate over their mutual distaste for all things non-white, even among complete strangers.
I'm never really sure how to act in that case. Of course your heart immediately goes to wanting to stand up for humanity, but your head reminds you that all you're going to accomplish is to make things more difficult for yourself. In the above example I was talking to a guy who runs the surveying for Henderson County, NC--the only guy--and I was trying to help my dad get a variance because the builder built his house two feet too close to the property line. So you have a choice between shrugging off the comment, or saying how you feel and making poor old dad tear down his freshly framed house because you've pissed off the one guy who can do anything about it. I'm a pragmatist and a coward, so I took the easy way.
However, I think that's how racism propagates itself so easily. People like me (who don't feel racist, and try to be conscious of not acting so) who tolerate actual racists for the sake of expediency. The message received by the racist in that case is probably one of tacit agreement, and any budding racists see this behavior as acceptable and perhaps even positive, because it shows that "we" have a club, and that when in this club a friendly chat about the weather and baseball is all you need to get your variance approved (for example). If you're not in the club, you're taking down the damn house.
My first trip to the south was for a wedding in Chattanooga Tennessee. I was walking by myself enjoying the view when a woman who must have been close to 80 years old asked me if I was visiting. I said yes and she said well, you must go see all the beautiful bridges etc. It was a lovely conversation and she was really proud of her town. I thought to myself, "what a lovely woman," and then she told me to stay away from a particular part of town, pointed in its direction and said "because of all the niggers."
My jaw dropped, I honestly did not know what to say. I can't remember if I just slowly walked away or if I said something along the lines of, "well I'm not a racist so that will be fine." -I was gobsmacked.
So, to your point, it's much more on the sleeve in the south, which is not to say that it is any more or less prevalent.
- Based on your profile, which says, "hide, hide from the dissenting opinions." I have to assume that you purposefully try and take the counter-argument.
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In my opinion - and not to be rude in my disagreement with you, TNG - I think the purpose of that statement or the backing behind it is as follows: bioemerl gets blocked/hushed/muted a lot, and it makes him really bitter. The profile statement is a passive aggressive attempt to make people feel bad when they navigate over to his profile after they have chosen to block/hush/mute him.
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I mean, I realize I'm analyzing here, but we tell people what we want them to know and how we tell them is part of that. He sees himself as the honorable dissenting opinion and we who find him completely intolerable are "hiding," synonymous in feel with "denying" "choosing not to see," "willful blindness" etc, as opposed to I don't know maybe human people who have the right to choose what other human people we want to interact with or not.
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Or what opinions they think are worth investing time with, and not.
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It's like "Oh, sorry you're so bitter about the fact that most people don't like your shitty opinions man, I see why you had to put it in your profile. Because your pretty skin is so thin and sensitive."
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I mean, thenewgreen - sorry I've edited this like a billion times - I do think bioemerl can be considered a troll - I guess that I just like to believe the best of people. i do think that your conclusions are valid and that your point in general is valid. So I start off disagreeing with you, but I'm not really.
I guess the difference is in whether or not you believe bioemerl is consciously trolling or not. I try not to believe that of people, so I see him/that statement as bitter, passive-aggressive, and impotently hacking away at a keyboard. But, if he is consciously trolling, that might actually make me feel a little better about his intellect, although not so much how he chooses to spend his time.
I stand by the fact that that statement is designed to make people feel bad for hushing/muting/unfollowing him, which is a bitter betsy "no one likes me and I want to shame you for not liking me" move. To me it just reeks of that. it's like the people who say "I think hubski is elitist" in their profiles. If that's the most important thing you have to say about yourself to every other hubski user, then really, why are you here? You can be elitist and still come here and have a fun time. But you think your personal feeling that it's elitist is the way you want to introduce yourself to everyone else on the site? Seriously, at that point, you're trying to insult people and piss them off.
- I have to assume that you purposefully try and take the counter-argument.
I come to places where people have views that oppose mine and argue with them wherever I can.
I love arguments. I tend to encourage and try to cause arguments with the posts I comment on and the places I discuss. I try to find places like this, where views are so different, and comment on them so that I may slowly try and ensure that any views I hold will be shifted to a more neutral point of view.
A person who lives their life only agreeing with other people, never bothering to challenge their views, is going to have views that are very weak, and very false.
quick question. So if I send you death threats with utterly disgusting suggestions, I'm just someone joking around without understanding the implications? Mhm. I guess police should never ever take death threats seriously in ANY circumstance. That logic is severely flawed, buddy.
Also: I am not telling you what it feel like to be black. I am not concerned about what it feels like to be black.
That's the first step in understanding discrimination. Right there. Empathy. Which you seem to have VERY little of.
But yeah other than that bye felicia.
- So if I send you death threats with utterly disgusting suggestions
I would likely laugh in your face, be a bit worried about it, and forget it about a week in.
If you provided some form of substantial evidence of having an address, being able to do harm, etc, then I would call the police and follow their instructions.
- That's the first step in understanding discrimination. Right there. Empathy. Which you seem to have VERY little of.
I have and will continue to try to pry apart my emotions and thoughts on what actions are moral/immoral, right/wrong, etc. The moment I base my actions and words on empathy is the moment I fail to take a moment and observe a situation objectively.
"I would be willing to bet money that not a single person in furgeson considers black people as less than human"
Are you one of those people that suggests that if you don't say n*gger then you're obviously not a racist? What coddled little town do you live in to believe that people don't treat black people as less than human? "I am willing to bet that instead they will talk about the black people being poor and ending up in jail on their own merit."
Email of Ferguson officer: Mudd, 64, was linked to an email sent in November 2008 which suggested Barack Obama “would not be president for very long because ‘what black man holds a steady job for four years?’
Mmm yes you were right. No one there has twisted views. NOPE.
"And I am not interested in your video of a single person in a single situation. I have seen actual, well researched, studies, that say everything I need to hear about discrimination."
Did you actually type this out thinking it'd make you sound intelligent and credible? Please post all of these well researched studies that apparently single handedly taught you all there is to know about discrimination. I was not aware that such things existed!
"My point isn't that such things do not exist, but instead that ranting and raving about how society treats black people as inhuman and how wrong society is will fix nothing, accomplish nothing, and lead to a society that is stuck in a ditch while yelling at each other."
Then how do you suppose we go about things, oh wise and all knowing? And clearly you have not read what you have typed, because most of what you say suggests that you believe none of this exists.
Also you basically refused to acknowledge someone's evidence with no real reason. "a single person in a single situation." Honey you're cute if you think this is an isolated case. REALLY adorable.
There's too much ignorant to even touch on in your posts. "The perfect person doesn't exist, and we all make mistakes and have flaws." Especially when you're attempting to pull out these types of holier than thou comments. You should reread what you wrote. Some of it is pretty embarrassing, considering you thought it was legitimate arguing.
I mean you attempt to call out eightbitsamurai with the whole "not being a black person isn't a valid argument." Yet you pull out bull like that. Practice what you preach. Really, the whole no-one-is-perfect defense is 1000x weaker.
Anyways, I'll pray for you. Pray that one day you'll realize that being such a pedant just makes you an asshole. Treating someone inhumanely does not automatically mean you are being enslaved. That kind of thinking is what is toxic.
Hey ER, if you surround text with | it will quote it. You can find more formatting and markup tips on the top right of the comment submission box.
- Are you one of those people that suggests that if you don't say n*gger then you're obviously not a racist?
No?
Were you expecting me to say yes?
- Email of Ferguson officer: Mudd, 64, was linked to an email sent in November 2008 which suggested Barack Obama “would not be president for very long because ‘what black man holds a steady job for four years?’
Mmm yes you were right. No one there has twisted views. NOPE.
Do you understand that this is supposed to be a joke?
Do you understand that the people sending it aren't aware of the harm or damage it causes?
- Mmm yes you were right. No one there has twisted views. NOPE.
No, they don't. They are uninformed, they are unaware, but they aren't evil, they aren't twisted, they don't hate black people.
A different argument I saw had a similar link in it. The very first quote was the officer apologizing and saying he didn't realize it was racist.
Now, you could be cynical and say the person was just hiding his true racism, I guess? However, I tend to assume the person is telling the truth.
- Did you actually type this out thinking it'd make you sound intelligent and credible? Please post all of these well researched studies that apparently single handedly taught you all there is to know about discrimination. I was not aware that such things existed!
I am talking about studies that show that people act differently around black people, that people stereotype black people, and so on. I have no links to them, because they were seen in the past, probably linked randomly on reddit or other places.
Those things are legitamate and honest, scientific, research. Single videos of a person in a store are meaningless when you are talking about an entire nation.
- Then how do you suppose we go about things, oh wise and all knowing?
I kind of imply above, but I made another post on this already, with someone who is far less sarcastic, and far better at typing responses.
- Also you basically refused to acknowledge someone's evidence with no real reason. "a single person in a single situation." Honey you're cute if you think this is an isolated case. REALLY adorable.
I... don't... I just said in my above post that I have seen studies that show such things occur around the entire nation.
My point is that a single video like that is emotional bait. It's the same thing I tell to vegans who try to get me to watch earthlings.
- There's too much ignorant to even touch on in your posts.
So, please, tell me why I am wrong.
- "The perfect person doesn't exist, and we all make mistakes and have flaws." Especially when you're attempting to pull out these types of holier than thou comments.
Yes, because I am aware that you can't expect everything of everyone. However, when I talk about what people should do, I am going to talk about this "perfect person". The person who does everything in a moral way, and always does what is right.
That is who we should all try to be. However, nobody is perfect.
- I mean you attempt to call out eightbitsamurai with the whole "not being a black person isn't a valid argument." Yet you pull out bull like that. Practice what you preach. Really, the whole no-one-is-perfect defense is 1000x weaker.
With that I was trying to say that I don't expect people to go out and sacrifice their own good for some higher cause. I was trying to say that despite a thing being the "good" thing to do, we shouldn't expect people to do it. Doing what is right doesn't mean you have to do everything right. Knowing and saying global warming exists doesn't mean you have to abandon all use of CO2, for example.
- No. We are not living in the sixties. Nobody, outside the small enclaves of KKK members who are shunned by society, considers black people as inhuman. Society does not treat black people as animals, as less than human, or any of such things.
A corollary:
"Humanity" isn't perceived or granted on a binary basis. We can legally ordain anyone to be anything we like, but it doesn't necessarily translate to swaying all the ethically bankrupt -isms that are undeniably still floating around. These -isms most obnoxiously surface through anonymity; 4chan is racist and sexist past the point of absurdity. It reads like a politically incorrect "Tim and Eric" skit or "The Onion" style irony taken to the furthest possible extreme.
Also, we are all literally wired to discriminate from eons of tribal lifestyle. When white people still dominate the political prowess of an entire nation (hell, much of the developed world), I think the result isn't really arguable. It's slowly getting better, but I know that I'd like to see total equality ASAP, and I have to work through my own inherent biases to do my part. It's not just race, the same goes for women's rights, LGBT, etc.
I do not mean to say that humanity doesn't discriminate, and I don't mean to say that that shouldn't be considered a bad thing.
I mean that saying "we are treated as not human" implies a far worse treatment than stereotyping. I consider someone who is thought by society to be inhuman to have zero rights, not to be human outside of one right, or a few.
- I mean that saying "we are treated as not human" implies a far worse treatment than stereotyping.
This is where I will take a rather binary stance in favor of idealism. The level of discrepancy between the ways different groups of people are treated is of no concern to me. That is exists at all is factual, and something to continually address and improve upon. I can see that you and I do not perceive it to be of the same severity, but like I said, the issue deserves acknowledgement and discussion.