Last week, I proposed an unpopular change to Hubski.
In short, I suggested that we only see comments from those users we follow, or until the comments have been shared with us. I also suggested that your feed be a result only of what tags you follow. No one liked the idea.
In the interim, I've arrived at a less-draconian version of the experiment. It is live now. Here are the changes we are testing:
1. When a user makes a comment, the person replied to and people that follow the user, can see the comment.
2. If you share a comment, everyone that follows you can see the comment.
3. If you reply to a comment, everyone can see the comment.
4. After 12 hours, everyone can see the comment.
5. Everyone can see all comments on Pubski.
6. User promotion is gone. New users can post or comment immediately.
In short, sharing a comment reveals it to everyone that follows you. Replying to a comment reveals it to all. 12 hours passing also reveals a comment to all.
I'm happy to discuss the rationale behind this, however I am going to be afk for a few hours, so it might take a short while to respond. Also, this is an experiment. It is likely that we do not adopt this functionality, and if we do, it will likely be modified by what we learn. I do hope you'll keep an open mind to see how it plays out.
As always, feedback is appreciated!
If I get mentioned in a comment by someone I don't follow, will I be able to see the comment before it is twelve hours old or is responded to? Will my hubwheel up top turn that beautiful orange? Or will it delay 12 hours? Or will it turn orange but not show up there?
A curious time to check in here. mk, how do you recognise thoughtful comments and thoughtful posts when you see them? How do you recognise their opposite? I know there's a more in depth thread discussing motivation which I should likely read more carefully. In block universe time, I already did.
I believe we all have that ability, and like many things which we can recognize, there's no simple test for it. Like SCOTUS Justice Potter Stewart wrote on pornography:mk, how do you recognise thoughtful comments and thoughtful posts when you see them? How do you recognise their opposite?
I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["hard-core pornography"], and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it...
You know what? NO. Potter Stewart is only famous for that one stupid line, which was effectively kicking the can down the road for some other schmuck to deal with. So for seven years, conservatives got to keep hassling liberals about what was or wasn't pornography because Potter Fucking Stewart decided to be pithy rather than useful. So seven fucking years later, some dude in LA gets to go to jail because a Goldwater republican in Newport got mad at a catalog and lo and behold we have definitions of pornography: whether the work depicts or describes, in an offensive way, sexual conduct or excretory functions, as specifically defined by applicable state law (the syllabus of the case mentions only sexual conduct, but excretory functions are explicitly mentioned on page 25 of the majority opinion); and whether the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value. Stewart dissented on that one, of course, but it was too late. Obscenity got knocked back further over the years to where we are now, where showing a tit in a movie is an instant R but you really gotta work at it to get gratuitous violence up to the point where they won't show it to kids. You're doing the same damn thing with "thoughtful" that Stewart did with pornography: you're saying the conversation makes you uncomfortable, you're refusing to give anyone else any insight, and you're refusing to deal with the problem and instead just shining it on. This is your site. Through and through. But it is what it is because of the contributions made by other people and some of us? We get MAD sometimes. And that's not your fault and I'm sorry it hurts your fee fees but FFS the whole point of getting MAD is so that you don't bottle it up and fuck up something that matters. Potter Stewart kicked the can down the road, then retired at 66 so that we could have Sandra Day O'Connor so that the Republicans could give the presidency to George W. Bush in 2000. And now we're all "I don't have to say something is something because there's that supreme court justice whose name I can't remember who didn't define pornography either" and NONE of that is "thoughtful."whether the average person, applying contemporary "community standards", would find that the work, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest;
I will definitely respond to dissent and criticism if there's the likelihood that a good conversation will result. I am fine with shitty comments sitting in the corner for 12 hours. No ever told me they like Hubski for the shitty baiting comments. We also have to opportunity to edit an improve upon our comment in the interim, if we chose.
Inflammatory comments setting to the wayside may be worth a try. When I coached high school soccer I learned to emphasize the “24 hour rule” to all players and parents. I explained it in this way, “We’ll often be dealing in highly charged emotional states, so as I make decisions about games, your position and playing time during games perhaps, I ask of you to agree to allowing 24 hours to pass before we discuss concerns. That way we’ll all have had time for our emotions to fade and we’ll be better equipped to reasonably work out the differences. I’ve learned to make it a regular habit in my life and don’t plan on going back.
If what we will have is what we do have, then I think I honestly am. There's plenty of places that accomplish that already. If I cannot succeed in maintaining a place that is a haven for quality human interaction, then I'd rather not work on it indefinitely. I won't see it as a waste, however. We had a very good run, and I am proud of the many friendships that were built here, and the interactions and the memories. I know that a lot of the relationships will survive Hubski if I get hit by a bus tomorrow. However, in all honesty, I am not at a point where I can simply let things be as they are, and keep the will to see that the bugs are fixed, the https certificates are renewed, and the bills are paid. Hubski has become similar to many other places on the internet, if not smaller. What we say to each other matters, and how we say it matters even more. The default commenting system for most of the social web is asymmetrical. There is no effort and little recourse for dropping shit on people. IMO is it making it harder for us to value each other.
I'm not sure what you are experiencing, but I just returned to Hubski after an absence and it does not seem to have significantly changed. It's still one of the best places for intelligent conversation in a spirit of kindness that I have come across on the web. If it's never going to be a money maker, have you considered handing it off to someone else or open-sourcing it so a site with the same dynamic could be hosted elsewhere? It would be a shame to see you just shut it down. I am not aware of other sites that facilitate mostly intelligent and respectful discussion like Hubski does. I have always thought the site mechanics are largely responsible for that. In all my years of wandering the internet, Hubski stands out as one of the few best places. I get that it's not free to run, but don't underestimate what you have here, and know that some of us would be quite sad to see it go.However, in all honesty, I am not at a point where I can simply let things be as they are, and keep the will to see that the bugs are fixed, the https certificates are renewed, and the bills are paid.
If what we will have is what we do have, then I think I honestly am. There's plenty of places that accomplish that already.
That's nice to hear, but I have noticed a general decline in the quality of interactions, and people being good to each other in threads. Oddly, that hasn't been the case in chat, and I have been putting some thought to that. This isn't just my opinion, mind you, a number of people have lamented to me in some form or other about an increase in emotional tenor, carelessness, and combativeness. I don't think our spirit of kindness is gone, but I do think we show less care in how we treat one another in threads. A lot of quality users have inactivated their accounts. I never expect or want Hubski to be a money-maker. I want Hubski to maintain a quality that brings value to intelligent, curious, creative, and thoughtful people. I'm not interested in the social web that thrives on influence, posturing, and insecurity, or a house of debate where participants aren't seeking to change their minds. I believe that few things are intellectually more satisfying than learning something that alters your thinking. I do agree that the mechanics have helped. Outright trolls usually have a short tenure here. However, I do think that what we currently have required an active team to prevent a slide into a place where the most emotional voices can prevail. Whether or not we can engineer for a place that doesn't require such a hands-on effort remains to be seen, IMO. Sorry if I sounded like I was making a threat to ragequit. I have no plans to shut down Hubski. I am however, resolved to see if we can improve upon what we have, and I'm willing to rock the boat and risk upsetting users in that effort. If we can make a positive change, it will be worth the effort. Users are upset with the status quo, and good users have been quitting for some time. I owe it to them and myself to see if we can do better. I owe it to everyone.I'm not sure what you are experiencing, but I just returned to Hubski after an absence and it does not seem to have significantly changed. It's still one of the best places for intelligent conversation in a spirit of kindness that I have come across on the web.
I am not aware of other sites that facilitate mostly intelligent and respectful discussion like Hubski does. I have always thought the site mechanics are largely responsible for that. In all my years of wandering the internet, Hubski stands out as one of the few best places. I get that it's not free to run, but don't underestimate what you have here, and know that some of us would be quite sad to see it go.
Quite regularly for many years now, perhaps every autumn, the idea of starting to use hubski has creeped into my mind. Maybe it's a craving for discussion online that is for once not a ticking time bomb loaded with uncontrolled emotion and bickering. So my respects to you in doing your thing to keep this place from deteriorating to your average online forum where a semi-anonymous grey mass just uses the platform to went their inner anger on others. Somewhat ironically though I've been hopelessly unable to integrate myself into this community. Nevertheless I'm still glad this place exists. It's akin to a beacon of light in the dark seas of the internet.
Also mk, is there a way that Hubski chat could make a pleasant tone when someone comments? It could be a toggle. That would be one of the single most useful features I think. When the chat is slow and you've got your browser open and are in a another tab, it will just let you know there is some activity. Would help engagement, and make people in chat happy.
testing: do not share this comment eidt: damnit, nil!