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comment by aidrocsid
aidrocsid  ·  3153 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Anyone here see this? Bernie Sanders speech stopped.

You know what? Fuck #blacklivesmatter. Fuck this racist, rage-fueled, divisive, violent, aggressive horse shit. Yes, yes, these are only two people and this is only a small minority of the people waving this banner, but that's pretty much always the case. This sense that it's fine to just do whatever you want because you feel like nobody's listening to you is completely unjustified and associating with it is bullshit.

Something's wrong? Use our fucking democracy like everybody else. You do not get to derail other people's lives just because you feel like the world hasn't been fair to you. Silencing other people who're working hard to be heard themselves is not fucking acceptable.



rob05c  ·  3153 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  

    Something's wrong? Use our fucking democracy like everybody else.

Democracy is not some magical idea which gives justice to everyone, if only they work with the system. Pure Democracy definitively allows the majority to oppress the minority. The 51% can and will oppress the 49%. That's one of the reasons the US has a Republic. But even the Republic allows systematic oppression of minorities, as much as we try to prevent it.

When the system does not give power to your group, it is not possible to work within the system to fix it.

That said, I agree:

    Silencing other people who're working hard to be heard themselves is not fucking acceptable.

Civil disobedience should not involve silencing others to be heard.

    Fuck #blacklivesmatter.

    Yes, yes, these are only two people and this is only a small minority of the people waving this banner, but that's pretty much always the case.

You're condoning discriminating against entire disparate groups for the actions of a few? I...what? Really? Really?

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aidrocsid  ·  3153 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    You're condoning discriminating against entire disparate groups for the actions of a few? I...what? Really? Really?

I holding a movement responsible for the actions of its members that seem to go completely unchallenged. Maybe I'm wrong. Can you point to black lives matters activists who've spoken out against roadblocks, human walls preventing access to education, and violently interrupting political rallies?

All I've heard from black lives matters protestors is the kind of unreasonable crap that 8bit was spewing.

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ecib  ·  3153 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    You know what? Fuck #blacklivesmatter.

I don't think it makes sense to toss out the notion that the way in which our justice system disproportionately and lethally targets black Americans is horrific, just because you disagree with the choice of tactics of a tiny sliver of supporters.

    This sense that it's fine to just do whatever you want because you feel like nobody's listening to you is completely unjustified and associating with it is bullshit.

I actually think that this sentiment is BS (no offense). It essentially would have precluded the entirety of every single bit of our nation's historical civil rights and suffrage movements, which employed civil disobedience as a primary tool every single day, every step of the way. I can't see strategies such as this as anything less than essential and integral to their cause and the past causes of millions and millions of Americans throughout history.

Democracy doesn't mean never pissing people off, and if you don't agree with this particular bout of civil disobedience, that's completely cool and fair, but just maybe you weren't the intended audience, so nbd...

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aidrocsid  ·  3153 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    I don't think it makes sense to toss out the notion that the way in which our justice system disproportionately and lethally targets black Americans is horrific, just because you disagree with the choice of tactics of a tiny sliver of supporters.

I would absolutely agree with you on that. That doesn't mean a movement that's come in the form of interfering with students, motorists, and now presidential candidates is the way to address that.

    Democracy doesn't mean never pissing people off, and if you don't agree with this particular bout of civil disobedience, that's completely cool and fair, but just maybe you weren't the intended audience, so nbd...

Not sure what's civil about screaming at a guy to give you the mic at the rally they paid for and threatening to shut said rally down if you don't get your way. That's the opposite of civil in my book. So is keeping kids from attending school by force. So is obstructing motorways and putting thousands of people at risk.

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user-inactivated  ·  3153 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    You know what? Fuck #blacklivesmatter.

lol

on a scale from "gluten-free is my necessity" to "I left my ray-band wayfarers in my prius", how white are you my friend

And just to tell you ahead of time -- you're going to be outraged and appalled by my snark, and then bitch and moan. I know that. You won't be the first and you won't be the last, and there really won't be a point to you doing that. I'm just going to tell you that literally everything you said is wrong, and if you REALLY wanna find out why, go through my badged comments and get a picture painted.

I promise, one of these days I'll make a glossary of the WWPR - Whiney White People Responses. Then I can just link it when chuckle-fucks like you show up and bore me. Then I can focus on other shit, like Inazuma Eleven. Can you imagine? RPGs and Soccer, cats and dogs living together.

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TheVenerableCain  ·  3153 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    I'm just going to tell you that literally everything you said is wrong - eightbitsamurai

Okay, let's break his comment down.

    You know what? Fuck #blacklivesmatter. Fuck this racist, rage-fueled, divisive, violent, aggressive horse shit. - aidrocsid

Opinion. He's stating his frustration with what he perceives as a counterproductive set of actions by what should be a productive movement.

    Yes, yes, these are only two people and this is only a small minority of the people waving this banner, but that's pretty much always the case. - aidrocsid

Fact, though lacking a concrete number. He's stating that in any group of people, there are going to be extremists and detractors that barrel over everyone else to scream their point across, because they don't know how to convey their ideas in an intelligent and logical manner. You can look at just about any group of people in the world and find these kinds of folks.

    This sense that it's fine to just do whatever you want because you feel like nobody's listening to you is completely unjustified and associating with it is bullshit. - aidrocsid

Opinion. It's hard to argue against this statement. Disrupting a presidential candidate's speech to scream in his face isn't the best way to get your point across (unless that is your point) or to gain supporters.

    Something's wrong? Use our fucking democracy like everybody else. - aidrocsid

Opinion. One could argue the underrepresentation of black interests, but these two aren't even coming close to utilizing our democracy. They're actively blocking another person's free speech in order to shout their own message.

    You do not get to derail other people's lives just because you feel like the world hasn't been fair to you. Silencing other people who're working hard to be heard themselves is not fucking acceptable. - aidrocsid

Opinion, though one could argue that interrupting someone who is saying his piece in a peaceful manner is at the least violating a social constraint and at worst violating their 1st amendment rights.

Now, on to what you said in response.

    lol

    on a scale from "gluten-free is my necessity" to "I left my ray-band wayfarers in my prius", how white are you my friend - eightbitsamurai

Name-calling. Has literally nothing to do with the substance of aidrocsid's argument. You just assume that aidrocsid is white and then proceed to casually throw out two stereotypes in order to demonize aidrocsid.

    And just to tell you ahead of time -- you're going to be outraged and appalled by my snark, and then bitch and moan. I know that. You won't be the first and you won't be the last, and there really won't be a point to you doing that. - eightbitsamurai

Prediction of aidrocsid's response. You're attempting to tell aidrocsid how he's going to react to something you're going to say, thereby stating that you know explicitly that you're going to argue in a snarky and unfactual manner and instead will be resorting to personal attacks or sarcasm.

    I'm just going to tell you that literally everything you said is wrong, and if you REALLY wanna find out why, go through my badged comments and get a picture painted. - eightbitsamurai

I think we went over this pretty well.

    I promise, one of these days I'll make a glossary of the WWPR - Whiney White People Responses. - eightbitsamurai

If a white person said the same thing about any other color of person, it'd be labelled as racist and hateful vitriol.

    Then I can just link it when chuckle-fucks like you show up and bore me. Then I can focus on other shit, like Inazuma Eleven. Can you imagine? RPGs and Soccer, cats and dogs living together. - eightbitsamurai

Name-calling. Clearly you're not bored, or you wouldn't have typed out such an emotional response. You're making an attempt to seem unfazed when your words betray you otherwise. Inazuma Eleven looks interesting. Probably a pretty relaxing game.

I do realize it probably won't be popular to disagree with you, but that's alright. As long as you've read and given this a thought, that's good enough for me.

Edit for formatting

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_refugee_  ·  3153 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Am I reading you correctly in that you seem to be saying that because something is deemed an opinion, it both should not be found offensive and also somehow relevant? For instance, just because the following statement is deemed an opinion doesn't even address whether or not it logically follows or support the 'argument' being made here. While disrupting an organized political speech is, you know, I guess not a "polite" thing to do, it's hardly "whatever you want." I think we're lacking some context in what occurred before the beginning of this video. Without that it's hard to say that those women are even agitated "just" because they feel like "nobody's listening."

    This sense that it's fine to just do whatever you want because you feel like nobody's listening to you is completely unjustified and associating with it is bullshit. - aidrocsid

Or fuck #blacklivesmatter is somehow not an offensive statement, just because it's not "namecalling"? It's okay to state an opinion that, while literally may not mean this, can easily seem like it means "fuck black lives?" It certainly means "fuck a movement that was founded on the idea that black lives are important."

How is the following considered an opinion? Because if you unwind it you can interpret it as "If something is wrong you should use the democratic system like everyone else does?" First, claiming 'everyone else' uses the democratic system is an assertion, not an opinion. Second, I'd consider this statement, if anything, a suggested 'solution,' except a solution that clearly doesn't work. Please name one social issue that our democracy has "fixed." We're still arguing about abortion 50 years after Roe v. Wade, we're still not practicing equality for women and minority, not to mention persons of alternate gender persuations or preferences despite a shit-ton of legal acts passed in, like, the 60s. And for women like the 20s or some shit.

Let's also discuss how someone would "use our democracy" in order to formally be allowed to provide commentary or discussion at a political event...Hmm...Right. I don't think that the speakers at such events are determined through those venues. The person holding the event has the ability to suppress the voices of anyone they want, because of course it's an event designed to support certain interests. Does that mean that that's fair or people shouldn't be butthurt? I get pissed when there are roadside preachers. Should I not get upset about things because legally, someone is allowed to do them? Silly.

    Something's wrong? Use our fucking democracy like everybody else. - aidrocsid

And:

    Silencing other people who're working hard to be heard themselves is not fucking acceptable. - aidrocsid

Man, it's like, those women were working pretty hard to be heard, too. But...it's okay because they were interrupting other people who were working hard first? I don't think you get to call dibs on the right to free speech or the right to make yourself be heard.

Final question on the first portion of your breakdown (by the way, overall, I would discourage taking a paragraph of text and breaking it down line by line and determining if each line is "offensive" or not because I think a lot of context gets lost).

Why are (adisdawhatever's) sentences only broken down in to fact/opinion? I mean, clearly some aren't. Or, you know, conversely, half of what you called "name-calling" in 8bit's responses could easily have been "opinion" using the logic applied to (aidsface - edit 2 - id like to say I'm still completely amused by "aidsface" and encourage the use of this, affection of course, nickname). If "fuck #blacklivesmatter" is an opinion than why isn't "how white are you?" I mean, it's just 8bit's opinion that he thinks the other guy is probably white, right?

Like, it's just weird that the first response is apparently all only opinion or fact, especially when I can't even parse the logic, but...like....apparently none of 8bit's reply is either opinion or fact? Weird.

________________________________-

OK so here's where you really fuck up though. So you're supposed to be like factually and independently breaking down these responses right?

    on a scale from "gluten-free is my necessity" to "I left my ray-band wayfarers in my prius" - 8bit

    in order to demonize aidrocsid. - YOU, BRO

What's so demonizing about these stereotypes? Are they truly demonizing? I'm pretty sure that demonization requires that something be made out as a threat, as harmful, painful, you know, like, actually uh...demonic in some way. Gluten-free, wayfarers, and prius? If anything it might be a little emasculating. Or point out that white people care about stupid minor level things...because they have the ability to. The freedom to.

Anyway, you wanna try to break something down factually, you kinda gotta leave your...what's that word? oh. "opinion" out of it.

As for that little bit about "oh you predicted (aidsface's) response so that means your comments aren't valid, you didn't give him a CHANCE!" let me ask you something.

As a woman who has found herself in really uncomfortable situations with men no small number of times, like, uh, how many douchebags am I supposed to just "get to know first" before it's okay for me to decide what "creepy vibes" are and turn men down without talking to them? How many men am I supposed to let close to me, how many times am I supposed to allow myself to go into what I consider threatening situations where the odds are in my favor, before it's okay for me to say "You know what, no, I'm not interested in having a drink with you, no I'm not interested in 'just hanging out' at your place, no, I don't want to give you a ride home" ?

And how many times do you think 8bit's already had to do the same thing except with race conversations? I guess that's just not enough, though. I guess it's just his job to tirelessly and emotionlessly defend people who share a quality he also possesses, because every time he doesn't, some asshole is like "But you didn't give him a chaaaaance!"

Let me tell you what I have been around the block with men and assholes are the ones who always complain about not getting a chance. The men that I date? I don't need to give them a chance to explain why their douchebaggery isn't really douchebaggery. They just aren't fucking douchebags.

    If a white person said the same thing about any other color of person, it'd be labelled as racist and hateful vitriol.

Yo, part of being the minority culture is that you are allowed to riff on your oppressors because it's one of the few outlets you have for the shit you're dealing with. White people get to not be stopped and frisked all the time in NYC. White people get to get into all sorts of colleges. White people get to not get pulled over by the cops for driving while black. Because of that, it's shitty when they capitalize on their superior position by, you know, driving home that they think everyone who isn't white isn't their equal.

Meanwhile, minorities get fucked by our social systems and politics at every turn. So...now you're going to police them for using the written word to alleviate and express some of that too? I mean, like...

Dick move. Dicktastic move, brah. I mean like, if I make a list of "excuses guys use to try to get me to go home with them" is that sexist and hateful vitriol? Or is it like uhhh a valid experience. If I make a list of "ways men tell me what to look like" is that sexist and hateful vitriol? I mean don't get me wrong. I'm angry. I'm hella fucking angry. But you know what? What I wish wasn't the case but it is? As a 5'3 140 pound girl I simply can't walk up to a strange man on the street who's just said something offensive or even hateful to me, stare him in the eye, and ask him to repeat. Why? Because that situation will escalate, and because much as I wish I could, I am not able to fight a man. And I am not able to fight a man when I do not know who or where his friends are, and I am a woman alone. (Hateful speech? One a man told me "You shouldn't be walking down the street alone at night, bitch." What is that? Oh, are you gonna tell me opinion? That was a fucking threat. He was not saying that to make me aware that I was unsafe walking down a fully lit, populated, busy-with-pedestrians, MAIN STREET of my little town at night.)

The thing you fucked up is not that you disagreed, it's that you did a really shitty job of justifying it.

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aidrocsid  ·  3153 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I'd just like to express here that the fact that eightbitsamurai is black apparently and I'm white does not make me "his oppressor". Is he queer? Is he physically able? Does he have mental illness? Is he gender conforming? Has he been homeless? Has he been physically abused?

Do I get to cast him as "my oppressor" if he's neutrotypical? If he's able bodied? If acts and dresses in a masculine manner or fucks women?

Does it matter that at the height of racism in the United States half my ancestors wouldn't even be considered white?

What I disagree with is this sentiment that only race matters and race trumps logic. It's racist nonsense. In terms of the black lives matters protests specifically, what I disagree with is human walls blocking entry to schools, road blocks preventing people from getting where they need to go, and people hijacking political events. Especially, for that matter, when it's an event that's going to help their cause. Bernie Sanders wants to tax the rich and help the poor. You know who that will help disproportionately? Black people. He wants decriminalization of drugs. You know who that helps disproportionately? Black people.

Hilary Clinton isn't going to swoop in and make massive economic changes, she's center-right. She's the safe candidate. Why don't they fuck with Hilary Clinton, who has said publicly that line they hate so much, "all lives matter" and who has no ambition of resource distribution? Why scream at the underdog who might actually do something good? It's not as if these rallies don't matter to the election.

My problem with black lives matter isn't that it's trying to improve the lives of black people and draw attention to the ways in which our society demonizes black people and oppresses them. I absolutely, 100%, believe that black people are oppressed in the United States. That's not an excuse for hamfisted racist blundering in place of actual intelligent action. I didn't like OWS either. That doesn't make me a conservative or a racist, it makes me someone who won't automatically lick your boots just because you've taken up a position or two I agree with.

Post-Closure Bonus Round:

    I didn't like OWS either, that doesn't mean it's not way way so easy to see how that statement was pretty offensive. I don't care why you don't like the political movement. I'm saying what you said was offensive, incendiary, and can easily be read as "fuck black lives" and not just "fuck the movement."

Hey, if you want to not bother to read past the first sentence and find out why I'm saying what I'm saying, that's your own decision. If you want to make me a straw racist then go ahead and build an effigy in my image, I don't really care. If someone can't be bothered to read what I have to say why on Earth would I care what they think of the little snippets that piss them off?

    If someone says "fuck Planned Parenthood," I'm not going to be like "Oh this person is a feminist, they just don't like that PP is gov't funded!" or some shit. I'm going to be like, "PP empowered me personally and thousands of woman across the country every day, fuck you."

Well Planned Parenthood is different. I've raised thousands of dollars for them and I think they're a great organization. I've never heard of them doing anything I've disapproved of. The black lives matters protestors seem to be totally fine with the three things I keep coming back to. Blocking access to educational facilities, obstructing major roadways, and disrupting the political rallies of underdogs who are more on their side than the party's frontrunner. I don't see any subsection of black lives matter condemning that. What I see is people getting real pissed off when anyone says all lives matter.

Just because I say fuck Scientology doesn't mean I'm working for Xenu.

    Oh I'm sorry. Is what you are saying that there was nuance in your opinion? And you are upset that people didn't see that when you didn't express it? You are upset that all these complicated, more fair, and more reasonable opinions you have put out now, did not come across when you said "fuck a thing?"

I could honestly give a fuck less. If you want to be intellectually lazy and paint with broad strokes go for it. It's your world view. I'm fine.

    You can #notallmen all the fuck over this thread, I'm done biting too.

Ahaha, yes. Because intersectionality when invoked by a male is #notallmen. I'm done biting too. I don't play with sexists.

    I have done my standing up in this thread because it is what I do: I stand up when I think it's necessary. I knew this day was gonna come and I believe that 8bit deserves, at least, my backing, support, and sympathy.

Well that's lovely for you. Personally, 8bit has been only rude to me so, again, not really concerned.

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_refugee_  ·  3153 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I didn't like OWS either, that doesn't mean it's not way way so easy to see how that statement was pretty offensive. I don't care why you don't like the political movement. I'm saying what you said was offensive, incendiary, and can easily be read as "fuck black lives" and not just "fuck the movement."

If someone says "fuck Planned Parenthood," I'm not going to be like "Oh this person is a feminist, they just don't like that PP is gov't funded!" or some shit. I'm going to be like, "PP empowered me personally and thousands of woman across the country every day, fuck you."

Oh I'm sorry. Is what you are saying that there was nuance in your opinion? And you are upset that people didn't see that when you didn't express it? You are upset that all these complicated, more fair, and more reasonable opinions you have put out now, did not come across when you said "fuck a thing?"

Gorsh. I'm so surprised by that.

You can #notallmen all the fuck over this thread, I'm done biting too. I have done my standing up in this thread because it is what I do: I stand up when I think it's necessary. I knew this day was gonna come and I believe that 8bit deserves, at least, my backing, support, and sympathy.

Edit: I have figured out how to get around the nuclear-ban(kind of). But in general I accept that I don't want to talk to those who don't want to talk to me. Also if your point is "well that organization is different, because I support that organization," you're kind of deliberately missing the point.

If you can't be arsed to express nuance in your first jerk off comment a) stay on reddit b) don't be surprise when people identify your lack of effort as the crusty semen it is.

I reiterate: in no way at any point did I try to say you were racist. I said, if you say a shitty thing, people are going to think you are shitty. This is even easier if you say a shitty thing that is easily misinterpreted to mean an even shittier thing and you don't bother to, like, idk, elaborate and reveal that you aren't that shitty. Saying fuck blacklivesmatter is incendiary. That is and has always been my point. I have never said you are racist because of it and have repeatedly pointed out that like 25% of the problem with that phrase is how easy it is to misinterpret and think means more than what I believe you do. But honey? Fuckin 90% of the problem is your attitude.

If you come across as douchey the solution isn't to say it's everyone else's problem.

If you are an adult you should be able to acknowledge how you contribute to the conflicts you find yourself in.

mk idk how you feel about this but via edits and "see parent" and so on I can hijack the nuke ban and frankly I am smart and self confident enough to accept the rejection of those who reject me, so you might want to look at what can be done to disallow that.

Pax folks! I got so much bigger fish to fry

P.s. Everybody I hope you have real fun responding to someone who probs can't even read what you say let alone respond to it. Don't worry, I understand. You have a hard on for feeling right and it's real easy to jack off when the person you want to say is wrong can't respond to tell you no. Somehow you will convince yourself that it's worthwhile to respond anyway, you know, for the audience. That's okay I get it. We are all ugly humans. But how much does the last word matter if you are arguing with a gagged man? Go ahead and fight someone who's tied up - I understand. When you can't win a fair fight of course you should find one that's slanted in your favor instead.

Well, I mean... Right?

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user-inactivated  ·  3153 days ago  ·  link  ·  

See, this is the craziest part.

It's like, TNG will go "ignore the trolls, it's not worth it." But the thing is, you're not a troll. You're like...an actual person, possibly with a family and shit. You got on your computer, typed all of this shit out, and then maybe called your mom, or whatever.

Why should I? Honest question. I am not hubski's Black Avenger. I don't get paid enough for this shit. I realize you think you should be proud of yourself for telling me how totes racist I am, like the 8 million other fuckers that have said the same thing to me, either by PM or comment. You used your wondrous logic and totally took my comment down, truly.

Like, fuck this shit. Seriously, fuck it. Being a racist asshat is not a fucking opinion and I shouldn't have to constantly tell people why they're wrong, and then fight it out with people who tell me I'm being "emotional", or "this is just a personal attack", "name-calling", "ad-hominem" , [INSERT WHINY BULLSHIT HERE]. This is that smug, flag-esque shit I'm talking about. You don't get it, you're never going to get it, nobody's ever going to get it. You're just going to sit there and try and tell me how wrong I am about shit you are never going to fucking understand. Why should I? Whyyyyyy should I?

But thanks. You sure showed me. I was just being "emotional", not exhausted as fuck having to defend the LITERAL SIMPLE FACT THAT BLACK LIVES MATTER HOLY FUCK.

BUT YOU'RE RIGHT. FUCKING AIDROCSID IS THE ONE THAT'S GOT IT HARD.

AND AGAIN: NOW I GET WHY MIN LEFT.

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thenewgreen  ·  3153 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    It's like, TNG will go "ignore the trolls, it's not worth it."

Yep, I will. its not worth it. If I see a comment that starts "fuck #blacklivesmatter I'm probably not going to respond to it. Just like if I'm in a cafeteria, looking for a table to sit at and I hear someone say something I vehemently disagree with, I'm probably not going to sit down and strike up a conversation.

There are any number of other tables, other people in that cafeteria having great discussions etc.

So much of our experience in life and online depends on which table we sit at.

You can look at that cafeteria and say, "fuck this place everyone is an idiot," based on that one table of assholes or you can spend your time at the other 90 tables with thousands of other, smart, kind and interesting people. It's wrong to pretend that the table of assholes doesn't exist but it's disengenous and and false to pretend that the rest of the people aren't there too.

if you're in pursuit of a place online or off devoid of assholes, you will be forever dismayed. If you are in pursuit of a place that will do what it can to diminish the impact the assholes can have, well.... you just left it.

I wish you well in all thay you pursue 8bit. I've enjoyed being a part of your world and having you be a part of mine. I will forever remember that a song I wrote played a supporting role in you meeting a cute girl and beginning to court her. -that was a special moment for me. Thank you.

All my best,

Steve

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rinx  ·  3153 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Yep, I will. its not worth it. If I see a comment that starts "fuck #blacklivesmatter I'm probably not going to respond to it. Just like if I'm in a cafeteria, looking for a table to sit at and I hear someone say something I vehemently disagree with, I'm probably not going to sit down and strike up a conversation.

I understand that mindset. But as a ex-redditor, it seems like it doesn't work. That was the strategy for a long time - "downvote and move on". The theory was trolls would have their own subs ( redpill, ctown, ect) but that in the community at large, they would be ignored. It didn't work. The trolls & toxic people recruited. They grew and grew until eventually they have a loud voice in the rest of the site. And when they are able to share their views and slowly recruit, not only do they draw other extremists but they convert people who haven't bothered to think through their stance.

Hubski isn't the same as reddit, I get that. But its not a cafeteria other. Extremists tend to find eachother online, and while they would be outcasts in the real world, on hubski certain toxic users already have lots of followers. Sure if you jump into a conversation about feminism or racism you expect things to get heated. But when you try to talk about cars and people inject racist comments, suddenly it becomes a lot harder to filter.

Not saying this site is a cesspool or anything, far from it. But this stance in particular worries me a bit.

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_refugee_  ·  3153 days ago  ·  link  ·  

All the new wave of hubski has been saying it doesn't work. Which means enough people have been having problems with it that yeah, it probably doesn't work. I know we have all seen the threads about "certain users" and so on, and been concerned that people on Hubski feel this way (even while I have been rolling my eyes and like, 'ignore them brah'). I have to confess that if a lot of people are having a problem even if I'm not, and I can kinda see why and how the problem is happening...the solution is not to say that there is no problem and the existing situation works.

It might work after you acclimate, but like...Idk. I'm not about appeasing and i'm not about putting up with someone's shitty behavior just to get along. My family wants me to tolerate my mom because it makes her happy, but it's at the expense of my own happiness. It pisses me off they even think it's okay to ask. I shouldn't be asked to just "shut up and put up," maybe we should try to see if shitty people can be talked to and made into better people.

Of course on the itnernet trolls etc but yeah.

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user-inactivated  ·  3153 days ago  ·  link  ·  

If I may interject, and just add a few thoughts here, because I value you and what you bring to this site.

    But the thing is, you're not a troll.

Let's just focus on this, for one quick minute, because I think it's part of the core of the issue. Neither aidrocsid or TheVenerableCain strike me as trolls, engaging in trollish behavior on the regular. They're regular, honest folk, like you and me. If we were all to compare ourselves, we'd find we probably have a lot of common ground (after all, we've all found ourselves gravitated to this community for starters) but there's also a lot of differences between the four of us. Racial yes, but possibly regional, economic, and other cultural differences as well. As we get older it becomes more difficult to see things from other perspectives because we slowly become more and more set in our world view. I think it's important to keep this in mind when we interact with each other, because sometimes through carelessness and lack of understanding, we will offend each other from time to time, but I think it's important that to realize that unlike trolls, we don't set out in the morning to be deliberately hurtful to each other in our actions.

Now, I can see how what aidrocsid is upsetting to see and read and your reaction is understandable as well. I think it's important to note though, that this is one of those times where he just happened to be careless about how he worded things, coming off as hateful and hurtful when he's sharing what he feels. This is a great teaching moment, for you or for someone else, to say "Hey, bro. What you're saying is unfair and here's why." In a way, you attempted to do that, but it was also very harsh and now there's a whole back and forth starting and we're all finding ourselves digging a deep hole here. Sometimes, it really is best to say to ourselves "Hey. I can't talk about this in a rational, mellow way, so I'm just going to leave it for now." I've done it before on a few issues myself and I know I'll have to do it again in the future and that leads into the other statement you made.

    Why should I? Honest question. I am not hubski's Black Avenger.

You don't have to take it upon yourself to address the issue every time it comes up, with every single person. After a while, the discussions get old and repetitive and you'll soon find that while your desire to hold the discussions are still there, the passion is gone and that'll kill it for you. It's okay to take a break from it once in a while, especially on a site like Hubski when we have people like kleinbl00, r6y9yd8lar5u1mugbz, and others who are very intelligent, insightful, well educated, and eloquent speakers who can also participate if they so choose.

eightbitsamurai, you're a truly awesome dude and you bring a lot to this site. Be here to have fun, be here to teach and to learn, to interact with others and share what you have to offer and feel free to leave it at that. You don't have to let this site become your personal chore, a part of your daily grind. Sometimes it's okay to just step away for a bit. It sucks that minimum_wage left and I barely knew her. I do know you though and enjoy what you have to share and I can honestly say that even though I've known you for like a month, personally it would suck 10 times more to see you leave too.

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_refugee_  ·  3153 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Dude but the thing is 8bit has already been way scaling back his time on the site. So your solution is to walk away when he's already been walking away for months. Like, dude used to be way active and I love him and missed him even before this shit went down today. To be honest, the next step of "walking away" for 8bit WAS leaving the site. He couldn't have gotten any further otherwise.

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thewoodenaisle  ·  3153 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Let's just focus on this, for one quick minute, because I think it's part of the core of the issue. Neither aidrocsid or TheVenerableCain strike me as trolls, engaging in trollish behavior on the regular.

What is up with this website's obsession of labelling people who you disagree with as trolls?

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ButterflyEffect  ·  3153 days ago  ·  link  ·  

We're bad at coexisting with people who have different opinions and need to label them to feel better at night.

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aidrocsid  ·  3153 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I don't think it's just this website. The internet, especially in the last decade or so, has developed a tendency to cluster people and their activities into little bubbles. People are more comfortable with reinforcing their own ideas than challenging them or even accepting the possibility that somebody disagrees with them and isn't a complete moron or piece of shit. When you really can surround yourself with people who agree with you all the time, or at least who seem to, it becomes easy to take any disagreement as antagonism.

We also seem to live in particularly ideologically heated times. Whether that has anything to do with the internet or not I don't know.

Anyway I'd say that if anything Hubski is less likely to assume that disagreement means you're a troll or an asshole than other sites. Some people seem to get really upset about disagreement here, but from what I can tell they're in the minority.

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TheVenerableCain  ·  3153 days ago  ·  link  ·  

You word things much gentler than what I'm capable of. I wish I could write a program that takes my thoughts and puts them through a(an?) rd95 filter in order to make them more palatable.

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TheVenerableCain  ·  3153 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Why should I? Honest question.

I assume that you mean "why should I ignore the trolls?" Generally, they're just there to piss you off and get you riled up. I'm trying to point out the flaws in your argument in order to allow you to take a step back and reconsider your approach. I'm not calling you racist, but I am pointing out the double standard of allowing one color of person to say a certain thing (i.e. "... one of these days I'll make a glossary of the WWPR - Whiney White People Responses.") while vilifying another color person for saying the same style sentence (e.g. a white person talking about the glossary of Whiney Black People Responses). That doesn't have anything to do with you other than the fact that you brought it up. My response isn't meant to be indicative of you as person.

    Being a racist asshat is not a fucking opinion and I shouldn't have to constantly tell people why they're wrong

I agree, but you didn't tell anyone why they were wrong. You simply said "literally everything you said is wrong" and didn't provide any additional information as to why your statement was true. Simply the fact that you said aidrocsid is wrong was good enough. I understand that it's tiring to fight for a position that you believe in, but if you do decide to call someone out, you have to be prepared to back up your position. Simply saying "you're wrong" doesn't mean anything. Fortifying your statement with facts or opinions of experts is necessary to have a strong argument.

For example, you could link this article and talk about this example of how Black Lives Matter is trying to engage in thoughtful discourse. They have a set time and place to meet, they've engaged with local police and community, and Rev. Donald L. Perryman, the man leading this group, has a PhD and is working on his second.

    He received a doctor of ministry degree, with emphasis in social justice ministry and political activism, and he is completing a Ph.D. from Antioch College, writing a thesis on ethical leadership in the post-drug war era.

You could throw out this quote from Judith Butler who holds a doctorate in Philosophy.

    "When some people rejoin with 'All Lives Matter' they misunderstand the problem, but not because their message is untrue. It is true that all lives matter, but it is equally true that not all lives are understood to matter, which is precisely why it is most important to name the lives that have not mattered, and are struggling to matter in the way they deserve," Butler said in an interview with The New York Times. "If we jump too quickly to the universal formulation, 'all lives matter,' then we miss the fact that black people have not yet been included in the idea of 'all lives.'"

I found these things with two minutes of Google work and wove them into this response in about five. I would contend that it supports your argument much better than simply telling someone that they're wrong and then calling them names.

    You don't get it, you're never going to get it, nobody's ever going to get it.

If you truly believe that, then you're in a darker place than I thought. There's no point in arguing if you believe you've already lost and there's no hope for anything positive from your interactions. Don't engage if you don't think you can win the battle. There are plenty of people that would love to understand, but the actions of those two at the Sanders speech are only pushing people away from Black Lives Matter. The only people that would be convinced that their actions had merit are those that already believe in the cause. Those people are already on the same team and there's not a point in trying to reach them in such a desperate and disruptive manner. They'll listen to you anyway.

    You're just going to sit there and try and tell me how wrong I am about shit you are never going to fucking understand. Why should I? Whyyyyyy should I?

That's a question that only you can answer for yourself. I think you'll find that a lot of people are open-minded, but that doesn't mean that they haven't formed an opinion already. It's your job, if you choose to try and convince them of your point of view, to be an accurate representation of that which you support.

    I was just being "emotional", not exhausted as fuck having to defend the LITERAL SIMPLE FACT THAT BLACK LIVES MATTER HOLY FUCK.

Nobody is arguing against the fact that black lives matter. Aidrocsid, from my point of view, is arguing against the people that are rallying under the Black Lives Matter flag in order to push an anti-white agenda instead of a pro-black agenda.

    BUT YOU'RE RIGHT. FUCKING AIDROCSID IS THE ONE THAT'S GOT IT HARD.

Nobody said aidrocsid has it hard, but you did attack aidrocsid's person instead of his argument. That's what I'm arguing against and trying to point out to you. I'm not calling you a racist. I'm not even saying that aidrocsid is completely correct. I'm not saying that I'm correct. I'm not even saying that you're completely wrong, but that your method of getting your point across leaves something to be desired. I'm giving you my point of view from someone who just stumbled along and read the exchange. I understand that this is a topic that is near and dear to your heart and that you feel very strongly about. I'm doing my best to write this in a neutral, informative tone, rather than a condescending one. I mean only to point out where things went wrong and where they could be improved. If you like, you're welcome to PM me if you wish to have a more private conversation. I won't give any details of said PMs out to anyone and if you want I can even delete them after our discussion is through.

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aidrocsid  ·  3153 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Actually, I decided as soon as I read the comments in this thread that I wasn't going to engage with you about this at all. I respect you intellectually and have absolutely no desire to interact with you on an emotionally complicated level. We'll talk about other stuff if you like.

Edit: Not emotionally complicated? You insulted me and then blocked me. I think it's emotionally complicated enough that you're not capable of disagreeing with someone about it without attacking them personally and then cutting them off entirely.

And as long as you're all up on this privilege thing, maybe, just maybe, you should look up intersectionality and realize that race isn't the be all end all of privilege.

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_refugee_  ·  3153 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    I respect you intellectually and have absolutely no desire to interact with you on an emotionally complicated level.

translation:

Hey man, you're cool, but I'm not interested in being friends or acting like a friend with you. Nah, when people get their emotions involved it's just way too much, so I stay out of all that shit. I only want to talk to you about situations that you don't care deeply about, because when you care deeply about something, man, like, I just have no interest in listening to you because we might disagree or I might have to, idk, actually hear the words that you're saying.

serious question:

what topics aren't emotionally complicated?

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user-inactivated  ·  3153 days ago  ·  link  ·  

It's not emotionally complicated. It's...uh, it's actually pretty clear what's right and what's wrong here. Lines in the sand, bruh.

    We'll talk about other stuff if you like.

LOL nah I'm good, my ego is getting in the way of this conversation apparently.

Edit: Jesus, now I know why Min tapped out.

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user-inactivated  ·  3153 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Go to sleep and get better, sorry if I gave anyone nightmares. I just thought the video was historically significant.

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_refugee_  ·  3153 days ago  ·  link  ·  

"Historically significant" like r we 4 sryzs?

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user-inactivated  ·  3153 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I think the future of democracy is tied to weather, or not candidates can run without backing from the establishment.

You people can fuck, right off, I can find smarter people to talk to.

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_refugee_  ·  3153 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Excellent. I have been saying it since day one.

PLEASE. FUCKING. LEAVE.

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user-inactivated  ·  3153 days ago  ·  link  ·  
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user-inactivated  ·  3153 days ago  ·  link  ·  
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rob05c  ·  3153 days ago  ·  link  ·  
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user-inactivated  ·  3153 days ago  ·  link  ·  

that divisive public take-down of Bernie has made me, a middle-aged life-long straight ticket Democratic voter ... go Republican in 2016.

lol

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user-inactivated  ·  3153 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I was told on the first meeting, that Bernie was supportive of the movement, by African Americans employed by the campaign. They said this is a rumor, the news keeps pushing.

These individuals are just being missled by the media, and/or paid by another campaign to trip him up.

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aidrocsid  ·  3153 days ago  ·  link  ·  

It doesn't matter, though. If anything the fact that he's supportive just makes it more egregious. You can't follow a presidential candidate around interrupting his speeches and literally stealing the mic. There is nothing at all that's remotely acceptable about threatening to shut down a rally. This whole concept that my free speech means I have the freedom to keep you from speaking is absolute bullshit. So is this sentiment that it's just fine to block off the entrances to colleges or stand in the middle of the highway. It's one thing to promote discourse, it's entirely another to act as though your problems are the only problems that matter.

The subtext of black lives matter is that only black lives matter. What about all those other lives? For that matter what about the lives of black students trying to get through that human wall or black fathers stuck in traffic trying to get home to their daughter's birthday? What about black people who support Bernie Sanders?

It's not even about black people, it's about egotism. It's about my opinion is more important than yours and I absolutely will hijack your life if I need to.

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user-inactivated  ·  3153 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Why It's Impossible To Advance A Cause Online:

Believe me I was pissed enough to post it.
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aidrocsid  ·  3153 days ago  ·  link  ·  

It's just so fucking frustrating. Bernie Sanders is an amazing candidate and he's struggling to get recognized as such by a party who actually fucking loves him. I've talked to multiple Democrats who really do like Sanders and agree with him on pretty much everything, but they're still going to vote for Clinton in the primary even though they don't really like her that much because they think she's got a better chance of winning.

It's bonkers, because the Republicans are at their weakest! Trump is their damn frontrunner. We'll never elect Trump. He might be popular on the right, but he's completely alienated key demographics like as the entire hispanic vote and anyone to the left of Ayn Rand. Now is the time to push the awesome far-left but still weirdly in alignment with the majority on every issue candidate who isn't really even a Democrat. It's not the time to dig up Hilary after her last failed primary simply because we have this weird preordained assumption that she's going to be the first woman in the oval office.

Bernie, if he has any chance, is going to have to really struggle for it. Assholes like this derailing what he does have going for him are only fucking things up more. And the horrible thing is that it's coming from the left.

I'm totally going to watch that video now.

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aidrocsid  ·  3153 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I definitely agree with what Soren's saying there. I'm not sure how much it applys to this particular context though.

What percentage of people supporting black lives matter support specific individual actions? Like how many of those people are in support of the human wall at Berkeley? How many people are in support of the roadblocks? How many people are in support of disrupting the Sanders rallies? I don't expect actual numbers, but given who you've talked to what's the general feeling? What would you expect a moderate position to be versus an extreme one?

Most of what I've been seeing from this has either been stuff like that or people getting really mad when someone counters with the idea that all lives matter. I mean, 8bit just blocked me in this very thread over it. It's an emotional topic. How prevalent do you think that is?

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user-inactivated  ·  3153 days ago  ·  link  ·  

What I ment by the video is that your reaction, just like the girls on stage, is less than helpful to the cause of stopping the misinformation going on.

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aidrocsid  ·  3153 days ago  ·  link  ·  

What exactly is the misinformation? All I see is one group of protestors who only seem to care about their own pet issues getting in the way of everyone else with no regard for the lives of others. I mean, the most common argument I've seen around this subject is people getting really pissed off when someone says that all lives matter.

If there are some reasonable people backing this and these other folks don't represent them, great. Where are they?

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