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comment by user-inactivated
user-inactivated  ·  3441 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Anyone here see this? Bernie Sanders speech stopped.

See, this is the craziest part.

It's like, TNG will go "ignore the trolls, it's not worth it." But the thing is, you're not a troll. You're like...an actual person, possibly with a family and shit. You got on your computer, typed all of this shit out, and then maybe called your mom, or whatever.

Why should I? Honest question. I am not hubski's Black Avenger. I don't get paid enough for this shit. I realize you think you should be proud of yourself for telling me how totes racist I am, like the 8 million other fuckers that have said the same thing to me, either by PM or comment. You used your wondrous logic and totally took my comment down, truly.

Like, fuck this shit. Seriously, fuck it. Being a racist asshat is not a fucking opinion and I shouldn't have to constantly tell people why they're wrong, and then fight it out with people who tell me I'm being "emotional", or "this is just a personal attack", "name-calling", "ad-hominem" , [INSERT WHINY BULLSHIT HERE]. This is that smug, flag-esque shit I'm talking about. You don't get it, you're never going to get it, nobody's ever going to get it. You're just going to sit there and try and tell me how wrong I am about shit you are never going to fucking understand. Why should I? Whyyyyyy should I?

But thanks. You sure showed me. I was just being "emotional", not exhausted as fuck having to defend the LITERAL SIMPLE FACT THAT BLACK LIVES MATTER HOLY FUCK.

BUT YOU'RE RIGHT. FUCKING AIDROCSID IS THE ONE THAT'S GOT IT HARD.

AND AGAIN: NOW I GET WHY MIN LEFT.



thenewgreen  ·  3441 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    It's like, TNG will go "ignore the trolls, it's not worth it."

Yep, I will. its not worth it. If I see a comment that starts "fuck #blacklivesmatter I'm probably not going to respond to it. Just like if I'm in a cafeteria, looking for a table to sit at and I hear someone say something I vehemently disagree with, I'm probably not going to sit down and strike up a conversation.

There are any number of other tables, other people in that cafeteria having great discussions etc.

So much of our experience in life and online depends on which table we sit at.

You can look at that cafeteria and say, "fuck this place everyone is an idiot," based on that one table of assholes or you can spend your time at the other 90 tables with thousands of other, smart, kind and interesting people. It's wrong to pretend that the table of assholes doesn't exist but it's disengenous and and false to pretend that the rest of the people aren't there too.

if you're in pursuit of a place online or off devoid of assholes, you will be forever dismayed. If you are in pursuit of a place that will do what it can to diminish the impact the assholes can have, well.... you just left it.

I wish you well in all thay you pursue 8bit. I've enjoyed being a part of your world and having you be a part of mine. I will forever remember that a song I wrote played a supporting role in you meeting a cute girl and beginning to court her. -that was a special moment for me. Thank you.

All my best,

Steve

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rinx  ·  3441 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Yep, I will. its not worth it. If I see a comment that starts "fuck #blacklivesmatter I'm probably not going to respond to it. Just like if I'm in a cafeteria, looking for a table to sit at and I hear someone say something I vehemently disagree with, I'm probably not going to sit down and strike up a conversation.

I understand that mindset. But as a ex-redditor, it seems like it doesn't work. That was the strategy for a long time - "downvote and move on". The theory was trolls would have their own subs ( redpill, ctown, ect) but that in the community at large, they would be ignored. It didn't work. The trolls & toxic people recruited. They grew and grew until eventually they have a loud voice in the rest of the site. And when they are able to share their views and slowly recruit, not only do they draw other extremists but they convert people who haven't bothered to think through their stance.

Hubski isn't the same as reddit, I get that. But its not a cafeteria other. Extremists tend to find eachother online, and while they would be outcasts in the real world, on hubski certain toxic users already have lots of followers. Sure if you jump into a conversation about feminism or racism you expect things to get heated. But when you try to talk about cars and people inject racist comments, suddenly it becomes a lot harder to filter.

Not saying this site is a cesspool or anything, far from it. But this stance in particular worries me a bit.

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_refugee_  ·  3440 days ago  ·  link  ·  

All the new wave of hubski has been saying it doesn't work. Which means enough people have been having problems with it that yeah, it probably doesn't work. I know we have all seen the threads about "certain users" and so on, and been concerned that people on Hubski feel this way (even while I have been rolling my eyes and like, 'ignore them brah'). I have to confess that if a lot of people are having a problem even if I'm not, and I can kinda see why and how the problem is happening...the solution is not to say that there is no problem and the existing situation works.

It might work after you acclimate, but like...Idk. I'm not about appeasing and i'm not about putting up with someone's shitty behavior just to get along. My family wants me to tolerate my mom because it makes her happy, but it's at the expense of my own happiness. It pisses me off they even think it's okay to ask. I shouldn't be asked to just "shut up and put up," maybe we should try to see if shitty people can be talked to and made into better people.

Of course on the itnernet trolls etc but yeah.

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user-inactivated  ·  3441 days ago  ·  link  ·  

If I may interject, and just add a few thoughts here, because I value you and what you bring to this site.

    But the thing is, you're not a troll.

Let's just focus on this, for one quick minute, because I think it's part of the core of the issue. Neither aidrocsid or TheVenerableCain strike me as trolls, engaging in trollish behavior on the regular. They're regular, honest folk, like you and me. If we were all to compare ourselves, we'd find we probably have a lot of common ground (after all, we've all found ourselves gravitated to this community for starters) but there's also a lot of differences between the four of us. Racial yes, but possibly regional, economic, and other cultural differences as well. As we get older it becomes more difficult to see things from other perspectives because we slowly become more and more set in our world view. I think it's important to keep this in mind when we interact with each other, because sometimes through carelessness and lack of understanding, we will offend each other from time to time, but I think it's important that to realize that unlike trolls, we don't set out in the morning to be deliberately hurtful to each other in our actions.

Now, I can see how what aidrocsid is upsetting to see and read and your reaction is understandable as well. I think it's important to note though, that this is one of those times where he just happened to be careless about how he worded things, coming off as hateful and hurtful when he's sharing what he feels. This is a great teaching moment, for you or for someone else, to say "Hey, bro. What you're saying is unfair and here's why." In a way, you attempted to do that, but it was also very harsh and now there's a whole back and forth starting and we're all finding ourselves digging a deep hole here. Sometimes, it really is best to say to ourselves "Hey. I can't talk about this in a rational, mellow way, so I'm just going to leave it for now." I've done it before on a few issues myself and I know I'll have to do it again in the future and that leads into the other statement you made.

    Why should I? Honest question. I am not hubski's Black Avenger.

You don't have to take it upon yourself to address the issue every time it comes up, with every single person. After a while, the discussions get old and repetitive and you'll soon find that while your desire to hold the discussions are still there, the passion is gone and that'll kill it for you. It's okay to take a break from it once in a while, especially on a site like Hubski when we have people like kleinbl00, r6y9yd8lar5u1mugbz, and others who are very intelligent, insightful, well educated, and eloquent speakers who can also participate if they so choose.

eightbitsamurai, you're a truly awesome dude and you bring a lot to this site. Be here to have fun, be here to teach and to learn, to interact with others and share what you have to offer and feel free to leave it at that. You don't have to let this site become your personal chore, a part of your daily grind. Sometimes it's okay to just step away for a bit. It sucks that minimum_wage left and I barely knew her. I do know you though and enjoy what you have to share and I can honestly say that even though I've known you for like a month, personally it would suck 10 times more to see you leave too.

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_refugee_  ·  3440 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Dude but the thing is 8bit has already been way scaling back his time on the site. So your solution is to walk away when he's already been walking away for months. Like, dude used to be way active and I love him and missed him even before this shit went down today. To be honest, the next step of "walking away" for 8bit WAS leaving the site. He couldn't have gotten any further otherwise.

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thewoodenaisle  ·  3441 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Let's just focus on this, for one quick minute, because I think it's part of the core of the issue. Neither aidrocsid or TheVenerableCain strike me as trolls, engaging in trollish behavior on the regular.

What is up with this website's obsession of labelling people who you disagree with as trolls?

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ButterflyEffect  ·  3440 days ago  ·  link  ·  

We're bad at coexisting with people who have different opinions and need to label them to feel better at night.

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aidrocsid  ·  3440 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I don't think it's just this website. The internet, especially in the last decade or so, has developed a tendency to cluster people and their activities into little bubbles. People are more comfortable with reinforcing their own ideas than challenging them or even accepting the possibility that somebody disagrees with them and isn't a complete moron or piece of shit. When you really can surround yourself with people who agree with you all the time, or at least who seem to, it becomes easy to take any disagreement as antagonism.

We also seem to live in particularly ideologically heated times. Whether that has anything to do with the internet or not I don't know.

Anyway I'd say that if anything Hubski is less likely to assume that disagreement means you're a troll or an asshole than other sites. Some people seem to get really upset about disagreement here, but from what I can tell they're in the minority.

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TheVenerableCain  ·  3441 days ago  ·  link  ·  

You word things much gentler than what I'm capable of. I wish I could write a program that takes my thoughts and puts them through a(an?) rd95 filter in order to make them more palatable.

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TheVenerableCain  ·  3441 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Why should I? Honest question.

I assume that you mean "why should I ignore the trolls?" Generally, they're just there to piss you off and get you riled up. I'm trying to point out the flaws in your argument in order to allow you to take a step back and reconsider your approach. I'm not calling you racist, but I am pointing out the double standard of allowing one color of person to say a certain thing (i.e. "... one of these days I'll make a glossary of the WWPR - Whiney White People Responses.") while vilifying another color person for saying the same style sentence (e.g. a white person talking about the glossary of Whiney Black People Responses). That doesn't have anything to do with you other than the fact that you brought it up. My response isn't meant to be indicative of you as person.

    Being a racist asshat is not a fucking opinion and I shouldn't have to constantly tell people why they're wrong

I agree, but you didn't tell anyone why they were wrong. You simply said "literally everything you said is wrong" and didn't provide any additional information as to why your statement was true. Simply the fact that you said aidrocsid is wrong was good enough. I understand that it's tiring to fight for a position that you believe in, but if you do decide to call someone out, you have to be prepared to back up your position. Simply saying "you're wrong" doesn't mean anything. Fortifying your statement with facts or opinions of experts is necessary to have a strong argument.

For example, you could link this article and talk about this example of how Black Lives Matter is trying to engage in thoughtful discourse. They have a set time and place to meet, they've engaged with local police and community, and Rev. Donald L. Perryman, the man leading this group, has a PhD and is working on his second.

    He received a doctor of ministry degree, with emphasis in social justice ministry and political activism, and he is completing a Ph.D. from Antioch College, writing a thesis on ethical leadership in the post-drug war era.

You could throw out this quote from Judith Butler who holds a doctorate in Philosophy.

    "When some people rejoin with 'All Lives Matter' they misunderstand the problem, but not because their message is untrue. It is true that all lives matter, but it is equally true that not all lives are understood to matter, which is precisely why it is most important to name the lives that have not mattered, and are struggling to matter in the way they deserve," Butler said in an interview with The New York Times. "If we jump too quickly to the universal formulation, 'all lives matter,' then we miss the fact that black people have not yet been included in the idea of 'all lives.'"

I found these things with two minutes of Google work and wove them into this response in about five. I would contend that it supports your argument much better than simply telling someone that they're wrong and then calling them names.

    You don't get it, you're never going to get it, nobody's ever going to get it.

If you truly believe that, then you're in a darker place than I thought. There's no point in arguing if you believe you've already lost and there's no hope for anything positive from your interactions. Don't engage if you don't think you can win the battle. There are plenty of people that would love to understand, but the actions of those two at the Sanders speech are only pushing people away from Black Lives Matter. The only people that would be convinced that their actions had merit are those that already believe in the cause. Those people are already on the same team and there's not a point in trying to reach them in such a desperate and disruptive manner. They'll listen to you anyway.

    You're just going to sit there and try and tell me how wrong I am about shit you are never going to fucking understand. Why should I? Whyyyyyy should I?

That's a question that only you can answer for yourself. I think you'll find that a lot of people are open-minded, but that doesn't mean that they haven't formed an opinion already. It's your job, if you choose to try and convince them of your point of view, to be an accurate representation of that which you support.

    I was just being "emotional", not exhausted as fuck having to defend the LITERAL SIMPLE FACT THAT BLACK LIVES MATTER HOLY FUCK.

Nobody is arguing against the fact that black lives matter. Aidrocsid, from my point of view, is arguing against the people that are rallying under the Black Lives Matter flag in order to push an anti-white agenda instead of a pro-black agenda.

    BUT YOU'RE RIGHT. FUCKING AIDROCSID IS THE ONE THAT'S GOT IT HARD.

Nobody said aidrocsid has it hard, but you did attack aidrocsid's person instead of his argument. That's what I'm arguing against and trying to point out to you. I'm not calling you a racist. I'm not even saying that aidrocsid is completely correct. I'm not saying that I'm correct. I'm not even saying that you're completely wrong, but that your method of getting your point across leaves something to be desired. I'm giving you my point of view from someone who just stumbled along and read the exchange. I understand that this is a topic that is near and dear to your heart and that you feel very strongly about. I'm doing my best to write this in a neutral, informative tone, rather than a condescending one. I mean only to point out where things went wrong and where they could be improved. If you like, you're welcome to PM me if you wish to have a more private conversation. I won't give any details of said PMs out to anyone and if you want I can even delete them after our discussion is through.

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