I think the question speaks for itself.
Per audacia ad astra!
Use of the f-word results in an instant ban in /r/movies.
I used to be ambivalent about that but having spent a lot of time around gay men, I can say with clarity that if you want a wall to go up, throw "fag" around.
I wrote it up once, in a mod mail discussion with someone angry at being banned for calling someone a "bundle of sticks." Here it is:
* * *
...and while we're at it,
- "The first known published use of the word faggot or fag to refer to a male homosexual appeared in 1914 in the U.S. It referred to a homosexual ball where the men were dressed in drag and called them "fagots (sissies)." Ernest Hemingway, in The Sun Also Rises (1926), included the line, "You're a hell of a good guy, and I'm fonder of you than anybody on earth. I couldn't tell you that in New York. It'd mean I was a faggot." A 1921 cite says, "Androgynes [are] known as 'fairies,' 'fags,' or 'brownies.'" The Straight Dope
- ""male homosexual," 1914, American English slang (shortened form fag is from 1921), probably from earlier contemptuous term for "woman" (1590s), especially an old and unpleasant one, in reference to faggot (n.1) "bundle of sticks," as something awkward that has to be carried (cf. baggage "worthless woman," 1590s). It may also be reinforced by Yiddish faygele "homosexual," literally "little bird." It also may have roots in British public school slang fag "a junior who does certain duties for a senior" (1785), with suggestions of "catamite," from fag (v.). This also was used as a verb. "He [the prefect] used to fag me to blow the chapel organ for him. ["Boy's Own Paper," 1889]"
Etymology Online
"A (male) homosexual. slang (orig. and chiefly U.S.). - 1914 L. E. Jackson & C. R. Hellyer Vocab. Criminal Slang 30 s.v. Drag, Example: ‘All the fagots (sissies) will be dressed in drag at the ball tonight.’
- 1926 C. Wood & G. Goddard Dict. Amer. Slang 16 Fagot, a chorus man; an effeminate man.
- 1936 J. Dos Passos Big Money (1937) 273 The first thing Marge thought was how on earth she could ever have liked that fagot.
- 1962 H. Kane Killer's Kiss xxvii. 207 Duffy was no queen, no platinum-dyed freak, no screaming faggot.
- 1966 New Statesman 18 Mar. 392/3 The American word ‘faggot’ is making advances here over our own more humane ‘queer’.
- 1970 New Yorker 28 Nov. 21/2 A gathering of homosexuals..a Jew, a Negro, a butch faggot, a nellie faggot. Oxford English Dictionary
...So. For nearly 100 years, "OP is a fag" has meant "The person I speak of is not only homosexual, but also un-manly, effeminate, and contemptible for his actions, mannerisms, beliefs and behaviors and the assembled must join me in shunning him for the good of our society."
Which - let's be honest - is what you meant, right OP?
We universally recognize that in these here heady internet days, one scores points by pissing in the direction one is told to piss, jerking in the circle one is told to jerk, and waving one's cock in the face of those whom one is told to wave one's cock in the face of, all in the name of masculinity, virility, fraternity, and VERY MUCH NOT BEING GAY. We wish for you to recognize, however, that if a person who actually is one does not appreciate being called one,
YOU SHOULDN'T.
* * *
I used to claim that as a practicing equal-opportunity dater I was allowed to use the term "fag." After all, my male gay friends used the tag! I had a very butch girlfriend! It's like how black people can use the term...well...yeah I'm not even comfortable typing out that term.
Just, don't. Your male gay friends might use it. But, even as one bisexual calling another bisexual a fag (a very old dear friend who I happened to date a long time ago; one of the few exes I remain friends with) I've seen how hurtful it can be. I let the term slip once or twice drunk and while she tolerated it I know it hurt her and I could see how it hurt her.
I like throwing loaded words around. I like to drop the word "cunt" in conversation to see how new people react. I like to push boundaries and I like to challenge people on assumptions, their word uses, and their comfort levels. I still don't use the n-word - juvenile though it may feel to type that out. And BrainBurner , I would encourage you to rethink the use of the word "fag" if you're throwing it around in conversation. Gay and bisexual people experience a level of discrimination that you maybe can't imagine. I've been in my college town, which is north of the Mason-Dixon line (although just barely), walking around the streets with my afore-mentioned dear ex/friend. She's visibly dyke-y. And I've seen people mime throwing punches at her face. I've heard people yell "Dyke!" at her from their cars. This shit still happens. And every time you use the word "fag," you're reminding these people of all these prior instances of their life in which they've been discriminated against.
Edit: I now can use Chrome at work and OMG CHROME THANK YOU FOR RECOVERING MY TEXT I LOVE YOU.
I had no idea that this whole thread took place underneath bl00's comment. I guess I never noticed _refugee_'s shout out? Anyways, for anybody who may come across this after this point: I can't speak for resukureipuru, but only for myself.
I have never and will never use offensive slurs such as "nigger", "faggot", "retarded", etc in real life. I fully realize the weight behind the words and how insulting they are to many people. As cliche as it is, two of my closest friends are gay. I myself am a closeted bisexual. I know these are loaded and hateful terms.
I originally posted the above phrase simply because I found it amusing and because I could identify with the phrase. It was and is directed solely at myself. Of course I realize what I am doing to myself, which is why I never bothered to respond to bl00's comment. I did believe, and still do, that I have the right to use such a phrase in reference to myself. However, I do realize that many people were offended and disconcerted by it's use. Furthermore, I really should not use it at all, in reference to myself or others, in person or online. Recognizing that Hubski is built on community, I certainly do not want to utter words and phrases that the community does not approve of.
Therefore I apologize to the Hubski community for using an inappropriate word. It will never happen again.
I think that I wrote your name incorrectly the first time I did the call-out and they have it set so that call-outs don't go out in edits, so unfrotunately you would have never gotten the notification.
As for that, it's a complex issue, as - well, as we discussed. I understand feeling like you should be able to use the word because, you know, you are one or kind of are one. It was a word I stopped using when I realized how much it hurt my friends.
The call was for personal mottos -- although there is a bit of ambiguity in the heading: Hubski, what's your motto? So for the information of anyone coming across this post in years hence - the mottos suggested here tell you about the personalities, vocabularies, and philosphies of the posters, not of the entity known as "hubski."
I totally agree with you and kb - I'd like to ask @coffeespOOns@ to read your response to kb and kb's entry because I'm wondering what she was thinking when she posted that picture. What up coffee?
kleinbl00 offers this:
- We universally recognize that in these here heady internet days, one scores points by pissing in the direction one is told to piss, jerking in the circle one is told to jerk, and waving one's cock in the face of those whom one is told to wave one's cock in the face of, all in the name of masculinity, virility, fraternity, and VERY MUCH NOT BEING GAY. We wish for you to recognize, however, that if a person who actually is one does not appreciate being called one, YOU SHOULDN'T.
Yes, I'm replying to myself: I just want to add, that younger people often do not know what words mean and the weight attached to them. I may have said this somewhere else, but once again: I have students who are young, smart speakers of English as a second language. I heard them referring to someone as a douche and asked them if they knew what it meant. They said, "A douche is a bad person."
"Actually," I said, "A douche is a woman's sanitary device for her girl places. Look it up."
You can see how deep misogyny runs in the culture when devices for cleaning your vagina became synonymous with an evil or stupid person.
There's a word in Spanish that is used to mean a timewaster or a useless person. The literal translation is someone who performs cunnilingus -- hardly a waste of time in my world. More evidence of a cultural misogyny.
As one of a few people on this site who can summarily remove any post I want, I wouldn't hesitate to simply delete a post that said "Do it, N-word," and I wouldn't feel the need to consult anyone about it. I would, just do it, so to speak. And I might PM the person who wrote it to ask them not to behave that way. But I didn't think of removing (and apparently none of the collaborators on here did either) that lame motto. I just kind of ignored, and I can't really say why. It's an offensive word to many people, and is also offensive to civil society generally. But clearly there's something less bothersome about it, because I, nor anyone else, deleted it. I'm at a loss. Should it have been removed? thenewgreen, insomniasexx, what do you think about this topic? We've been fortunate not to have to deal with a lot of abusive language here, but it's never a bad idea to try ruminate on what an appropriate response might be.
On a lighter note, I'm super curious about the Spanish word now! What an odd insult. Certainly not a waste of time, either, in my humble opinion.
That's interesting that a few of you have the power to summarily remove a post.
Of course you prefer if the community speaks up hushes, mutes, whatever offensive people. coffeesp00ns said she'd delete the picture herself if anyone found it offensive. I found it offensive, but I'm glad she wrote a coherent explanation of why she posted it. If it had been deleted summarily, I never would have had a chance to hear that. It builds respect of one another, I think. Of course, she wasn't the original poster but she is someone I follow so I called her to account. kb had already responded to the main charges.
I don't know. I hate both the word "faggot" and "nigger". I hate when they are used in jest or as if the word has no meaning/power (ie: "just do it, faggot"). I hate when they are used with power (harsh, directed insults aimed at a person, a group of people, etc).
However, removing comments opens a big door into moderation and that's a door I prefer to leaved closed. I don't think any of the people who run this site have not arbitrarily or unarbitrarily (not a word, I know) moderated/deleted comments/posts and it's nice that way. It allows users to make their own decisions about what they want to see and what they don't.
In the cases of spam we have introduced targeted features to prevent further spam attacks rather than simply deleting the spam. Examples include the auto-global ignore and limiting number of PMs new users can send. This is much more productive and helps Hubski grow in the long run rather than just putting a bandaid on the issue and hoping the issue doesn't get bigger over time.
Some sites will automatically change selected words to other words but it usually ends up being a toy to play with rather than a meaningful way to halt the problem. People try to get around the barrier, people play with the changed words, etc. Back when I played Neopets (I was like 7!) they would change "thong" to "longjohns." You know how much more I wanted to say "thong" after I found that out? 4chan did the same for a while, with n words and f words turning into brightly colored gibberish.
The other issue is that people can say incredibly hateful and derogatory things without using specific words. Is that better or worse than an off-handed comment using one of those words? I don't know but it's something we should consider if we want to set up guidelines for this type of stuff.
I say let the community shame them and don't make me log in as admin. I don't want to moderate - I want to add to the community and help it grow.
I think the only time we ever went on a deleting rampage was back before you had admin powers. mk or I (I can't remember who) found a picture of an adorable baby buffalo, and we changed some porn pictures to that image. We thought it was pretty funny at the time. I can't remember if we deleted any comments off hand, but we certainly spent a few days in mod mode; I can't say I enjoyed it.
- However, removing comments opens a big door into moderation and that's a door I prefer to leaved closed
I don't use those "powers" you speak of unless the intent is crystal clear. Post a picture of a woman getting screwed by a horse...? yeah, I'm gonna remove that immediately and wash my eyes out. But the OP's intent was not clear to me. It wasn't directed at anyone but him/herself. There's a "self" hatred in the comment that could mean a lot of things. My point is, I don't think it was black/white. Intent means a lot to me in such things. That said, I didn't write the user either and should have.
Thanks for _refugee_ for the redirect, otherwise I wouldn't have seen this, and I think I need to address it.
Frankly, I posted the picture I posted for a few reasons, some that I were a gut-reaction, and left it up for others.
I posted it in direct reaction to resukureipuru's post because I
1.) felt that I got what was intended by the motto ( the idea of overstepping or pushing past ones own insecurity and fear)
2.) felt, once again, a desire to be accepted by my peers ( who in this case seemed to be would-be inhabitants of 4chan's /b/) and so posted the referenced picture for the common ground it supplied. while being in my mid-20s, I am in many ways still insecure, much to my own derision, and like anyone with that characteristic I occasionally do very stupid things to feel accepted.
Of course, I realize that the word "faggot" is inappropriate, and after sleeping on it, I considered taking down the post, especially considering I am someone who is MAAB and is currently working through whether or not I feel comfortable in my assigned gender (therapists are helpful). I could probably, by the dictionary definition of the word quoted above, be referred to as a "faggot" and would of course find it a hurtful, derogatory term.
However, and this is a big however, I left it up. my reasons are as follows:
1.) I felt that while the word and phrase used by the OP are problematic, that is how they have decided to motivate themselves and I should not judge them based on their problematic language. I see my own post as supporting that person's desire to move past their own self-placed barriers to success, phrased in this manner, or in a more PC manner.
2.) I'd already put it out into the world. I am a big believer that when you say things, they don't go away, even (or perhaps especially) online. What do I gain by removing it, when those who are offended will have already seen it and will remember it? to them my personality is already stained, and there is little I can do to improve my stature. Those who saw it and agreed with the sentiment (if not the words used) will see the missing post and wonder where it's gone. Self-censorship? Censorship by others? Shaming?
I truly feel that, while the wording used in the original motto is problematic, it was not intended to be harmful to anyone. As the cards have played out, it has been taken in that harmful way (in a manner I should have expected, considering the loaded nature of the word "faggot").
So that's the reasoning. If anyone wants me to remove the image, etc. let me know, the delete post button is one click away.
I'm glad I read this. I immediately un-followed those in this thread that I thought posted offensive things and in the case of OP muted/hushed, then moved on. This was days ago. It's nice to get your perspective on this, I've always enjoyed your contributions and was kind of shocked. -re-followed (but mostly because I'm looking forward to recording music with you :)
I'm glad you took the time to read it. I'm still a stupid kid occasionally, and obviously this was one of those moments where a lack of rational thought process and perspective made itself jarringly apparent. I wear that, and there's nothing I can do now but move forward and be a bigger person for it.
I'm looking forward to music as well.
- 2.) I'd already put it out into the world. I am a big believer that when you say things, they don't go away,
This is absolutely something I believe in, at least in regards to Hubski and other such communities. That said I delete things with impunity from my Twitter but that's often because I get drunk and tweet complainy, embarrassing things about boys. And I mean embarrassing in a juvenile sort of way, in a "It doesn't really matter" sort of way, as opposed to times when I have - yes - embarrassed myself here. Those times are infrequent but they have happened and even recently. b_b
I have had posts on Hubski I have thought about deleting and I have decided to let them stand because sometimes, I am an idiot. Sometimes I make a fool of myself, sometimes I lower myself to the lowest denominator in the conversation, sometimes I take the bait. In addition sometimes I bait people with arguments I know they will jump on, and take the more fallacious or foolish point of view. I can justify this by saying "I enjoy making this argument and if this person takes the other side it just forces me to fully vet and develop my point of view" but it is still an ugly conversational tactic.
I would say to let it stand as a monument to what you may now find to be a poor decision. Let us live with our shame and maybe try to learn from these experiences. Of course, you and I are both going to take from our misguided posts what we will - but we also know that they were observed and have an impact in the community besides just the person that we responded to.
Sometimes you have to live with the shit you do. You might log onto Hubski the next morning and feel embarrassed. In a way that's social policing at work, using the term "policing" as a neutral although it may sound like a negative. (Social policing is something I have thought about a lot.)
I think that the word "faggot" is loaded and should not be used. But once it has been used, deleting it is only an attempt at a cover-up. We should own up to our least flattering moments. We should have to.
Ah, no, you misinterpret. I have embarrassed myself on Hubski recently and you had subtly referenced it. Here is my recanting.
Edited to say, here are my big girl pants. I promise not to lead any more people on Hubski into arguments where I know they will take what I consider to be the "wrong" side just so that I can rip into them and tell them how wrong they are.
Oh you're talking about the PM in which I said that I wouldn't deface the wall here by crying and spitting fire. For the record, I did not subtly reference your earlier comment that you linked in your reply. It hadn't even crossed my at the time. It's just my philosophy based on the fact that I've never been interested enough in an internet fight to actually let someone get under my skin. I wasn't trying to call you out. Do as you please, so long as you keep doing it well.
I dislike that the call-out feature doesn't work on Edits because half the time when I am making an edit it's because I didn't spell a username correctly and the call-out didn't work. FYI, mk . I don't know as it's something you can fix, but still.
thanks for the fix, otherwise i would never have seen this. I'll attach my response to lil's post, so you can see it there.
Cheers.
While I may not enjoy it, but it seems my de facto motto is "fuck it, we'll do it live." This usually happens during group projects (even though I try to communicate as best I can, and keep people accountable, it seems inevitable), but sometimes it seeps out into other facets of my life.
It's either that, or "honey badger don't give a shit, honey badger takes what he wants."
Life's short. This definitely isn't my only motto, but I figure the rest of them don't mean anything if I don't follow them and this is the only phrase I know of that make makes me realize the importance of living each day to its fullest.
Part the first - Don't be a dick.
Part the second - whenever possible, be a dude.
Part the third - become yourself one day at a time.