Counterpoint: Recruiters are commissioned salespeople with a potentially great product to sell. It's salary, room and board, adventure, college, and life-changing amounts of opportunity. It's also a potential lifetime of disability, PTSD or other problems but at peak? 169,000 troops were in Iraq and 6,900 have died. There are 1.4 million active personnel in the US military; statistically speaking, you're a lot better off in today's military than you were in say Vietnam, when there were 150 million fewer people in the country but twice as many active duty personnel (and nearly ten times as many US troops dead). You're required to surrender your autonomy, however, and even with the comparatively low staffing requirements we're having a hard time meeting quotas. The recruiter hounding you legitimately believes that a stint in the military would do you good; he's just trying to figure out the best way to explain it to you. This doesn't make him right but it doesn't make him scum. They also know a lot more about you than most people really know. It's a hell of a business: if one Marine is over $6500 in recruiting costs alone, what's the expense of actually fielding a dude to fix F-16s? Back in the Stone Age, there was a guy in some of my classes who was going through the undergraduate engineering program to get into flight school to fly tankers. Why tankers? Because he had no interest in blowing shit up and tankers were the most direct path to airline pilot he could find and that was a damn nice living. He told me that he was looking to get two million dollars worth of education for free. Somebody out there thinks you could be a hell of an asset to Uncle Sam. You don't have to be nice to him but it doesn't hurt you to consider them as people. I, too, had a recruiter who wouldn't leave me alone. All he needed to do was look up "mechanical engineering" and "grew up in Los Alamos, NM" which led him to "surrounded by people with Q clearances" and that dude? Twice a week for a year called me on the phone to convince me to train to be a nuclear engineer on a boomer. Did I want to tend to the reactor on a megadeth machine? Fuck off, Jack. But that woulda been a cushy goddamn gig. In retrospect I'll bet that recruiter would have gotten a new car out of my enlistment. I woulda been set for fuckin' life; they would have made me cut my hair, tho (and live underwater for months at a time) so I expressed my keen disinterest for months after graduating. but that made him persistent, not a scumbag. Somebody took that job. I hope they love it. They're probably still doing it.
It's worth mentioning that I've always been cordial with recruiters, and 'scum' might have been a bit of an embellishment on my actual feelings. I believe they think the military is a good opportunity for people, but their practices still feel predatory to me. They're trying to figure out the best way to explain it to me, but those arguments end up being "Hey, you could escape poverty!" or "It's better than trying to find a job!" and while it's not the recruiters fault, it effectively targets kids with little to no alternative. The military can be a fantastic opportunity for those kids, but I wish there were more options for social mobility outside of enlistment, because a lot of them are going to be killed or crippled or mentally sundered by it. It sucks that they have to roll dice that I get to turn my nose up at in distaste, and maybe military recruiters just remind me of that.You don't have to be nice to him but it doesn't hurt you to consider them as people.
I get it. I totally get it. They've got an office, a gameplan, a database, an advertising budget and a massive government bureaucracy with hundreds of years of experience and you've got a bum leg and a Facebook profile. And they can lie with impunity. They may not even know they're lying - they're selling you on what they know but it's not like they're your agent. They're onboarding you and then you're someone else's responsibility. It actually makes it easier - they're likely to hear back from the guys they've helped while the guys they've hurt aren't likely to call them up and bitch them out because if the military is a bad fit for you, there are people you're angrier at than the recruiter. It's also probable you're smarter than them. No blame on them - they joined the military and ended up in a sales career so they're in a strange corner case but regardless, they aren't the ones in the SCIF coming up with battle plans. Regardless, there are lots of people who don't see through it and there are lots of people whose expectations are exactly met. It sounds like you aren't one of them and I agree: the sooner the recruiters figure that out, the happier everyone will be. Totally agree. I knew a girl whose stint in basic landed her a permanent handicap permit simply because the drill instructor decided that she absolutely could run four days on a shattered kneecap. I just had lunch with three ex-navy guys, though, who frankly were not headed for great things. They're now job-holding kid-rearing society members. Takes all kinds and yeah - if recruiters annoy you you aren't the military type. I sure wasn't.I believe they think the military is a good opportunity for people, but their practices still feel predatory to me.
I wish there were more options for social mobility outside of enlistment, because a lot of them are going to be killed or crippled or mentally sundered by it.
You know, the last thing I ever wanted to be known for on Hubski was my military service. But for fucks sake, I guess I'm stepping in for the sheer idiocy of these posts. Have you ever actually interacted with someone who has recently served Nil? Have you asked them about their experiences? I can almost guarantee you haven't, because you know fuck all. First off, looking at work today, the US military is a decently paying job. It's east to look at the $20k salary and scream "WE AREN'T PAYING THEM ANYTHING". However what costs does an E2 in the military have? Healthcare is paid for, lodging is paid for, food is paid for, any classes they take are paid for. That $20k is solely expendable income. How many people you know, Nil, have $20k of expendable income a year? And that's as a 18 year old with zero life experience. Second, look at who is going to combat nowadays. Who died this year? Green berets were the majority of casualties. What troops were sent to Iraq in response to this Iran nonsense? The 82nd airborne. What do these forces have in common my friend? I'll go ahead and answer because I know you don't know. They all volunteer MULTIPLE TIMES. Anyone going to dangerous situations is actively trying to get there. If you want to talk surge times, sure, but that's a long fucking time ago. Stating that the military is life ruining is sheer ignorance. It speaks to a basic understanding of the lives of 99% of service members. Quite honestly, your entire posts reads like a vietnam-era diatribe against the man. I would suggest not speaking to something you know nothing about .
Alright man. Let's take a step back here. I am somewhat known at work for having a liberal perspective on many issues. I work hard to ensure that ideas such as those presented in this article are at least heard by my peers. However, it is an almost impossible task. These perspectives are drowned out by the radical sides. The media has no doubt propagated the extremes and rapidly spread the idea of 'libtards'. Those who blindly follow liberal ideas, screaming them from every platform without an actual idea of reality. I know this isn't a thing, you know this isn't a thing. However posts like these are exactly what exasperate the problem. Because I'm telling you right now Nil, you do not know what you are talking about. Remember that you are counting your anecdotes on one hand, while I am counting in years. But instead of debating, instead of learning from a perspective that you are not aware of, you insult me, you disrespect me, and you make wide presumptions of who I am and what I represent. Even so, despite your insulting rant, I would happily explain how my years of experience have led me to the conclusions that I hold. So ask yourself, how would you like to proceed in this conversation? As for your last question. Do not ever ask it again to another person in your life. More likely than not, your teacher pulled Skylar aside to explain the pain and intricacies associated with such a question. Give it some thought.
Bro. I know exactly how you feel and I know exactly where you're coming from. Trust me. I really, really do. I'm begging you though, please, sincerely, mercifully realize that there's real human hearts on the other side of that screen. This is a really important conversation to have, but it's a conversation that can only take place with measured and reasoned words, not anger and vitriol. Otherwise, instead of building bridges of understanding, all we're gonna succeed in is building walls of animosity and resentment. Please. I feel you. 100%. But trust me, this isn't the way to have this talk.
I can't speak for necroptosis but I can point out that arguing he's your former high school teacher is an ineffective rhetorical strategy. It's telling that you haven't discovered this yet. You often reframe arguments in terms of "my prior experience is this, it makes me very angry, answer for the crimes of the people in my past." If I were to describe your interactions on this website, I would say that the happy ones are you looking forward and the angry ones are you holding someone else accountable for your past. What's interesting is you often speak of your transformation in terms of the liberation it brought you but it takes effectively nothing to make you clutch your chains. Then, bonds-in-hand, you lash out like a caged animal at The Bad Man In Fourteenth Grade while pretending it's somebody here. You have been explicitly invited - numerous times, in an understandable spectrum of politeness - to reframe your arguments in the terms under discussion but, as is often the case, you self-righteously assert that your past is the only frame worth considering. So tell me Nil, who killed you? This angry ghost routine is not helping you process it. You refuse to see the real people around you in favor of the phantasms that haunt you still. You make your way towards happiness only to jump off the road, clutch your petticoat and shout at the evil monsters who touched you in a bad way - talk about PTSD, your life is like High School Groundhog Day. I understand why these discussions make you antsy - you had the world figured out, then you didn't, and you refuse to figure it out again until the world apologizes for lying to you. You're going to be disappointed in that, though, and I think you know it - if I had to guess, most of your anger is over the odious task of giving up on the apology and moving forward with your life. Can't help you with that, kid. None of us can. We're all interested in your contributions here in the physical plane, though, despite your regular need to shout at ghosts. Just recognize that the more you do it, the more we switch from "talking to someone with passion" to "talking to someone with a disability" and that probably doesn't feel great to you. Maybe you see this as a way to work through it. Take it from 20 years of anger issues: you gotta keep most of it on the inside or the inside is all you're left with. You know what helps me sleep at night? Progress.
Well look at that, I’ve been called a mass murderer. I feel like I’ve just checked a box in ‘The American military experience’
I didn't interpret his statement like that, but I understand where you're coming from. I'm very thankful that you decided to speak up and give your perspective. We needed to hear it. You should post more. You used to post much more, I think, and it was always enjoyable. :)
Naaah he's totally calling NC a mass murderer. That's the problem with relying on superheated rhetoric: someone's gonna get burned. At least you don't have to think much, you just open your mouth and the flamethrower comes out. It's a very cathartic way to live, albeit a lonely one.
Ahhh, yes. The "QQ", internet rhetoric's Crane Kick. Per canon law, I hereby acknowledge the 100% rhetorical, spiritual, metaphysical and factual correctness of your arguments, validate your every emotion and salve your savaged fee fees. A spirited debate, sir, but one in which you have CRUSHED. My hat tips in your general direction. Know that when the toddler behind your eyes finishes his tantrum, you are welcome back into the fold. You're a clever dude with much to add but we both know the argument you're having isn't with anyone here. And while I understand the appeal of sounding one's barbaric yawp across the roof of the world I will point out that you didn't actually do anything here. And I suspect your inability to actually do anything is one of the root causes of your self-loathing.
I'm super bummed to see you leave, man. We're a worse community without you. To say that I greatly admire your passion and idealism would be understating things.
Can we take a step back? From my outsider's perspective, it seems like both 'sides' are focusing on their extremes and will inevitably escalate this into a shouting match.College, four years after you were originally planning on going after you've been so institutionalized you can no longer function as an adult in society and can't make friends with normal people! Now you have to readjust to an academic setting full of LIBTARDS.
As someone who has lived both lives, this discussion is 100% necessary. For the same reasons Hatch wrote that article these ideas must be combatted. Ignoring it will do nothing but widen the divide
And starting arguments with shouts or insults isn't the way to do it, though it's not like I can't understand why this topic stirs emotion. Here's what I know/think I know, and I'd like your input: military gives discipline. You have to get fit, attentive and cease thinking in terms of selfish 'me me me', substituting it with teamwork. Rely on others, have others rely on you. Those are great qualities. Many of my peers (I'm 21, civilian and Polish) could use them, so could I in my striving to be a better person. All those other benefits sound fantastic, but there have to be some darker side to enlisting. It seems like there's only extreme pro and anti propaganda with next to nothing in-between. What would you say be the reasons against enlisting? In what ways military can be detrimental? What's to regret? I'm more interested in hearing about those from someone who served than didn't.
That is not a valid argument, nor is it the subject under discussion. If you wish to argue that the United States does not exist, therefore does not need a military, you must also argue why the United States (which does not exist) having a military is irrelevant. It's much easier to answer the original question; you have fewer tasks.