While there are certainly racist voters for Trump, and while the Trump ticket has done little to discourage racism, I'm pretty firmly of the opinion that "Trump voters" are working class men and women who listen to bombast and don't hear rhetoric. They're the people who want to hear solutions, not the ones who want to know why simple solutions don't work. More than that, they're the ones who grew up under the Fairness Doctrine and don't understand that Fox News has no more responsibility to the truth than the National Enquirer does. My heart bleeds for them. It's the system of political warfare that has created their environment and they're just swimming in it. But I don't know how to make things better for them without denying them that which they want so deeply.
This is the middle class of America that was promised an easy fix to everything, and wonder why the easy fixes they have been given, don't work: - take a pill for that lump - cheer for this team and you're a winner too - blame those "other" people for your limitations The generation raised on Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous, Viagra, and promise that your union will somehow protect your job against cheaper products made better elsewhere. All the bullshit sown in the 80's has come home to roost, and Billybob is arming himself to overthrow the government that gives him the social security and disability checks he uses to buy guns and ammo.... but first he's gonna stop at Arby's in his Ford F-350 that has never been off-road or pulled anything more than a trailer with jet skis, and use some of his sweet sweet government check to feed the gaping maw of his nagging self doubt that he isn't actually a special snowflake, at all, and may be culpable for his own lot in life. He's also been a victim of Pandora's Immigrant: The one that's simultaneously taking his job and over-burdening the welfare system. All the Republican contradictions of the last 30 years are laid bare in this sad demographic... "Immigrants are taking your jobs!" vs "Immigrants are a burden on the welfare system!" "Reduce government spending!" vs "Our corn farmers need subsidies to stay afloat!" "Reduce the size of government!" vs "Legislate against lifestyles I don't identify with!" "Environmental regulation is killing business!" vs "My tap water is giving my baby cancer!" "Products are too expensive!" vs "Trade deals are hurting our local industry!" "Provide a level playing field for business!" vs "But give me this subsidy, or I won't vote for you!" And on, and on, and on, and on...
It's not that you're wrong, it's that the scorn isn't helpful. Fundamentally, you're talking about people who did what they were told for 30 years and are now fucked. And it's not like the Democrats told them not to buy F-350s and jet skis, they just looked down their noses from behind the wheels of their Volvos and BMWs. And it's not like both sides didn't benefit, but only one side is promising to put a bunch of coal miners out of business. And you don't have to be a coal miner to sympathize with coal miners. See, in your voice there's this coastal elitist "Fuck the Rednecks" flavor that everyone can taste. And the problem is most of the coastal elitists agree with you and why not? The other side got to where they were by being on the wrong TEAM. But we kinda need to start recruiting. Know what I mean? And kicking sand in their faces when they're down is not helping.
See, this is the narrative that I don't agree with: that your "rednecks" are fucked. I'm 40 minutes, tops, from Trumpistan. And you know what I see when I get out there? Brand new $60k trucks in the driveway. Huge multi-acre pieces of land. A pole barn workshop with an extra-tall door on one side so the 35-foot RV with three pop-outs can be parked out of the elements. I have a very good friend who is an honest-to-god Iowa corn farmer. Gun-toting, Republican-supporting, get the gummint outta my business... but give me my corn subsidy, or I'm going broke, real-life American farmer. And these people are being told day in and day out, by their own personal wing of the nutjob right-wing media, that they have it HARD. And they are suffering. And other people in America have it better than they do. And, for all intents and purposes, I do NOT have it "better" than they do. In fact, being reliant on the city for things like power and water makes me distinctly more susceptible to shakeups in the system. I understand coal mining is down, but it has been down ever since machines were brought in to do the majority of the work that they'd previously relied on dumb muscle to do. Same with auto manufacturing. Same for the majority of the physical labor jobs out there... that work is going away. And that's got nothing to do with the liberal left-coasties like me. That's because Bill Walton decided he could make more money if he bought cheapass chinese-made shit, and sold it back to the people who just lost their jobs to... cheap chinese manufacturing. Are there people who are screwed out there, and have a right to be pissed? Sure. But it sure as fuck isn't the people who painted "TRUMP" on the side of their $40k pole barn, that covers their $250k RV, and $30k of shop equipment. Fundamentally, you're talking about people who did what they were told for 30 years and are now fucked.
There ain't no 60K trucks in driveways out here except for in the bigger cities. Once you get out of the ring suburbs? Poverty and meth, crumbling roads, old farmers trying to hang on and schools that exist because they are cheaper than prisons. The barber I go to was not able to make it into work last weekend because he had to drive into the big city to ask for a handout from the state to fix the 75 year old historical building he is in due to not enough business to make enough money to fix it himself. He makes enough to pay the taxes and buy food while his wife works somewhere nearby. That was a lovely conversation to have as I was getting a shave with a straight razor on my neck. And all they do is watch Fox News, owned by a foreigner (but don't tell them that) who see Trump as the only one who gives a damn about their plight. And all the problems are the liberal commie minorities in the big city, so vote republican to keep them under control. Every time I go out into the sticks, I get a little more concerned that something very awful is about to go down. Then I get back into the liberal bubble of the city and think everything is going to be fine. The only major candidate, IMO, that cared about the plight of whole swaths of the county that are in deep, deep trouble was Sanders. We all know how that went down. The people who grow our food are getting older, the kids worth investing in are getting the fuck out as fast as possible, and huge swaths of rural fly over country are in deep, deep trouble. Rural people on the coasts at least have the tax base of the bigger cities to suckle on and eek out the next decade or two while this all shakes itself out and leaves something completely different in its wake. Kentucky? Indiana? Arkansas? West Virginia? They do not have the luxury of a Los Angeles, San Francisco, Seattle, Dallas, NYC etc as a buffer to buy time. There is no money for infrastructure that is not shoveled into corruption, the schools all suck (and I say that as someone that does outreach... thank science for the internet), they can't build new roads when the population is declining and with it losing the justifications for adding to what they got. The only thing going for a lot of the smaller rural areas is that housing is cheap as the old people die and nobody is moving into the now vacant housing. (2000 square foot house next to my friends, 10 blocks from "downtown" is 40K). But buying a house out here is an anchor, and there are a lot of people who are waiting for that big chance to get the hell out of here and go... well elsewhere, out there, where the jobs are, to school, anywhere but here. Young people work their asses off, get a wad of cash and leave instead of buying homes and land and so on. All the farm equipment I see on the way out to the sticks is old, I cannot think about the last time I saw new equipment working on a field. I get the same vibe of how the urban ghettos of the 70's acted. Nobody had any hope, nobody could buy houses, cash and employment was transitory so they all bought fancy clothes and Cadillacs when they had cash to spend instead of investing in housing education etc. If you manage to get lucky and have 20K in your hand, you buy something for the now because looking around? Fuck tomorrow. I say all this as a guy who makes twice median income, has a shit ton of savings and plans on retiring at 55. I have a thought here, somewhere, but it is late and I need to get to bed. Maybe in the AM will expand on this.
No need to expand on it, my friend. You fucking nailed it right here: As Steve Jobs would've said, "Boom." I get the same vibe of how the urban ghettos of the 70's acted. Nobody had any hope, nobody could buy houses, cash and employment was transitory so they all bought fancy clothes and Cadillacs when they had cash to spend instead of investing in housing education etc. If you manage to get lucky and have 20K in your hand, you buy something for the now because looking around? Fuck tomorrow.
Worked out really well in the 70's-90's I have thoughts, they ran way freaking long, working on editing now.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachia#Poverty_in_Appalachia There's a fun read. I'm having a hard time looking shit up on my phone at the moment, but if memory serves me right post-civil war economy in The South was utter shit for decades and the scars of resentment from that run deep as fuxk too. Yet here you are criticizing farmers and ranchers for taking subsidies when not doing so could repeat past economic mistakes in our history. Droughts, floods, and plagues if insects ruined agricultural economies in the late 1800s and early 1900s and with global warming, we might see that repeat again. It's cool though. Rednecks in Appalachia, the deep south, and the flyover states all backed the wrong ponies. Their come uppance is obviously well deserved, like hat one guy who got hooked on heroine because his doctor told him percocet is totally safe to take long term. Obviously people that make grevious mistakes, not matter the circumstances and motivation behind them, are beyond deserving of help.
Man, I wish there were some sort of magic wand solution we could wave over these areas and just make shit better for the people there... Appalachia, specifically, but also Detroit, and Arkansas, and ... yeah. There are a lot of places the modern world has just left behind. In the West, when the gold/silver/gypsum mine stopped producing, everybody in the town just left and went somewhere else. They followed the work. But when the need for coal dropped dramatically - and will only continue dropping - what is a coal miner to do? Move to Philadelphia and open a sandwich shop? I mean... shit... generations of families have worked in these industries that are drying up. Family members are buried in the back yard, in some cases. Do we really expect these people to just up and move somewhere else? No ... but ... the US doesn't have a guaranteed base income, like some countries, so these people need jobs. But the only job in town has left, and taken all the paychecks with it, so the other jobs in town collapse as well. And then you have Appalachia... a stunningly beautiful bit of the country with no way for people living there to support themselves. It's a problem that requires a long term effort, across multiple disciplines, and the collaborative effort of communities, government, and people from all over the country, not just the rurally dispossessed. My friend Annie Ford is a fiddle player from Appalachia. Grew up in a clapboard house with an outhouse out back, and they had to carry water from the stream. Serious 1880's lifestyle. Now she has her own touring band, lives in Seattle, and has a modern house. We talk about the juxtaposition sometimes, but it is just such a hard life for me to even conceive of... there's not a lot of common ground or experience. Then there's my friend Brett who had parents that got tired of the rat race, and moved out into the backwoods of Idaho, and lived off the land and what they could build with their hands. He and I have talked a lot about that life - and the first time he saw a computer, etc - and how different things are now for him... he's does telephone tech support for a high tech company, has two motorcycles, an apartment in the middle of town, and is a big time gamer. So ... what then? ... we de-populate the rural areas and move people to the cities so they can get office jobs? This is not a simple problem, and there are not simple solutions to it. (But, back to my original point, that's what the Republicans sell: simple (idiotic) solutions that don't actually solve anything for the people they pretend to be speaking for. Oh wait! I know! All the poor in Appalachia can be a part of a new WPA program, like Hoover Dam, and build Donald's wall! Yeah, right...) There are no easy solutions to these problems, and it will take collaboration of people, government parties, and a seriously long-term vision of 20-50 years, to see any changes... IF anyone can get people together on a plan, instead of worrying about who is marrying who, or whether the Confederate flag should be taken down...
These statements aren't all contradictions, just to play devils advocate Ill show you how they can be true. My co-worker (great guy hard worker) immigrated here and hes clearly "Taking a job" but a large chunk of his extended family is on welfare and he spends a lot of his income supporting them. So both statements can simultaneously be true. Obviously it would be nice to reduce government spending and subsidies but if other governments are providing subsidies as well the only way to keep the industry afloat is to provide subsidies as well. I dont think that's true with corn but aircraft it is. DOMA happened under Clinton but also DOMA did not increase or decrease the size of goverment Bad environmental regulation does kill business but it can also simultaneously give your baby cancer. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_spotted_owl AMERICAN... products are too expensive, because trade deals have moved the entire supply base overseas. If all the raw materials are made overseas even if all other costs are the same transportation becomes a big cost as its expensive to transport raw materials. Large companies have a massive advantage over small shops. They pay few taxes while small shops can pay a ton in taxes. And technically all city infrastructure matching is a subsidy so if you want that road/bridge/tram in your town the money has to come from somewhere. Just some food for thought"Immigrants are taking your jobs!" vs "Immigrants are a burden on the welfare system!"
"Reduce government spending!" vs "Our corn farmers need subsidies to stay afloat!"
"Reduce the size of government!" vs "Legislate against lifestyles I don't identify with!"
"Environmental regulation is killing business!" vs "My tap water is giving my baby cancer!"
"Products are too expensive!" vs "Trade deals are hurting our local industry!"
"Provide a level playing field for business!" vs "But give me this subsidy, or I won't vote for you!"
Perhaps I wasn't being clear enough. What I'm trying to tell you is that you are the liberal version of the conservative "contradiction" you describe. You took liberal talking points that are all basically straw-man arguments and generalizations for complex social issues and you struck them down. Congratulations on your victory.
Right. Exactly. I illustrated a point with some off-the-cuff flippant commentary. I wasn't writing a KB post, with annotations and footnotes and references. I made a flippant comment about the republican contradiction machine. You really need to chill, dude. Take a breath and let the obvious trollish posts roll off yer back.
Being mixed in with “those people” (not that I'm voting for Trump, just that I'm kind of surrounded by Trump supporters) let me add some nuance here. Relationship with health care is complex. On the one hand, many people do take that pill for this lump or that because they’re afraid of what it can be and are hoping for an easy fix. They often trust their doctors because doctors are supposed to be a source of authority. On the other hand, a lot of the times they don’t go to the doctor. They don’t trust those pills will work. They don’t trust the doctors know what they’re talking about. They see all of those lawsuit ads on TV and all of those medicine ads with a novel’s worth of notices and disclaimers. They don’t have insurance and when they do they’re afraid of the bureaucratic process of handling billing. Many just don’t go out of apathy. If I took a poll of my peers and asked them the last time they’ve been to the dentist for example, I’d half bet the average would number in three or four years. Maybe longer. Sports are a source of regional and civic pride. When we support our local high school football teams, we’re supporting our kids and our cities. When we support major league teams, we’re bonding with each other and create a source of excitement. The world series is going on right now. Chicago and Cleveland are probably bursting with energy and enthusiasm at the moment. By vicariously enjoying the success others have, and encouraging them to succeed and showing support, we make ourselves feel better. Not touching that one. Obviously. "Reduce government spending!" vs "Our corn farmers need subsidies to stay afloat!" "Reduce the size of government!" vs "Legislate against lifestyles I don't identify with!" "Environmental regulation is killing business!" vs "My tap water is giving my baby cancer!" "Products are too expensive!" vs "Trade deals are hurting our local industry!" "Provide a level playing field for business!" vs "But give me this subsidy, or I won't vote for you!" There are a lot of problems and concerns in the world and no easy answers and not everyone holds contradictory opinions, even if they appear to be so on the surface. Many times, they're a lot more nuanced. Just because someone or a group of someones doesn't strike you as sophisticated, it doesn't mean that they aren't. If you’re ever on the road and find that you might be in Redneckistan and you know one of us Hubskiers is near by, shoot up a flare. We got some good folks to introduce you to.take a pill for that lump
cheer for this team and you're a winner too
blame those "other" people for your limitations
"Immigrants are taking your jobs!" vs "Immigrants are a burden on the welfare system!"
Billybob is arming himself to overthrow the government that gives him the social security and disability checks he uses to buy guns and ammo.... but first he's gonna stop at Arby's in his Ford F-350 that has never been off-road or pulled anything more than a trailer with jet skis, and use some of his sweet sweet government check to feed the gaping maw of his nagging self doubt that he isn't actually a special snowflake, at all, and may be culpable for his own lot in life.
Thanks for the thoughts. And I share them, as well. Like I told KB, I have an extremely close friend who is an honest-to-God Iowa corn farmer, and we have these talks. I bought a motorcycle a couple of weekends ago, and riding home I rode through Trump territory. It's no more than 40 minutes, MAX, from my house. Hell, my MOM was head of the western states' US Chamber of Commerce for 15 years, and the only more Republican organization than that is probably the Heritage Foundation. We avoid talking politics because it never goes well. I basically have insurance now for the first time in my life. This describes me perfectly. I know I have it, but I also know it won't pay for shit, so I don't use it. Ever. I pay cash out of pocket. Out of simple fear of the system. But Americans have been raised to believe anything can be cured with a pill. Take a close look at the opiate addiction problem, for a microcosm of what is wrong with the entire way medicine is practiced in the USA. And yet, the moment the Democrats look at a Republican's program, say, "Hey. Now there's a Good Idea!" and then go to implement it... who tells us every single day that it is destroying America? Yeah. And a huge scam, that has been perpetrated by the construction industry. And, the way sports are supported in the USA, are simply a brutal form of tribalism. When I played rugby overseas, after a match both teams went out the bar and got drunk together and talked shit about the game. Everyone walked off the field and left the game on the field. Americans? They riot. And brutalize each other. All so the construction industry can build more ridiculous shit on the back of the taxpayers, by selling them a load of bullshit. This is where the Republicans and Democrats really differ. (Well, until Trump.) The Republicans have always had a well-oiled machine that could change direction on a dime. Spin anything. With the Democrats? Well, as they say, the easiest way to beat a Democrat is to put two of them in a room together. Ha ha ha. But seriously, Democrats (who I do not identify with, by the way) are wonks. They argue details and nuances and projection methods. Republicans just make shit up that sounds good in a sound byte - even if it contradicts their position yesterday - and then suddenly every one of the talking heads is using the exact same script. It's ridiculous. They'll say anything because of their cynical view of the American populace as being dumb and easily distracted. I've got lotsa good folks in the flyover states, but am always happy to add more to the list! They don’t have insurance and when they do they’re afraid of the bureaucratic process of handling billing.
Sports are a source of regional and civic pride.
Just because someone or a group of someones doesn't strike you as sophisticated, it doesn't mean that they aren't.
If you’re ever on the road and find that you might be in Redneckistan and you know one of us Hubskiers is near by, shoot up a flare. We got some good folks to introduce you to.
Americans? They riot. And brutalize each other. All so the construction industry can build more ridiculous shit on the back of the taxpayers, by selling them a load of bullshit. Uhm. I'm sorry. What point are you trying to make here? That sports are imperfect and rednecks are at fault? You're from Seattle, right? A stereotypical liberal haven full of rich millenials and the tech elite? Do the names "Seahawks" or "Mariners" mean anything to you? Did a bunch of conservative business cronies sneak on to the city board overnight and vote for policies to create and support these teams? Did the same thing happen over in Boston, home of the stereotypical ivy league liberals? It's not a Republican/Democrat thing bro, it's a politicians are a bunch of fuck heads thing. As for Europe? Dude, the UK coined the term Hooliganism when it comes to sports. Hell, in Europe and Africa, racism and soccer crowds seem to go hand in hand. And fucking shit. Sports isn't the only industry taking advantage of Americans. Healthcare costs rake millions of people over the coals every year and Obamacare was a sellout to the insurance agency. The banking crisis is just the tip of the iceberg of Americans getting screwed and I'm pretty positive it was Bill Clinton who repealed Glass-Steagall which lead to that crisis. You see any Republicans creating laws to fight predatory lending? Probably not. Then again, I don't see any Democrats tripping over themselves in an attempt to do the same.And a huge scam, that has been perpetrated by the construction industry. And, the way sports are supported in the USA, are simply a brutal form of tribalism. When I played rugby overseas, after a match both teams went out the bar and got drunk together and talked shit about the game. Everyone walked off the field and left the game on the field.
Oh the whole sports stadium scam is a personal annoyance of mine. Like the Olympics, their construction is sold to the city as a big money-making venture, so there is a referendum and the public is convinced to vote for it. I was going to link to all the recent articles about the lack of value these new uber-stadiums actually bring to cities, but a simple Google search of "stadium fiasco" brings up tens of thousands of results. Heck, I remember the Kingdome getting paid off 15 years after the building was demolished and replaced by a new stadium. That's funny, actually. All those tech companies came from somewhere else about 10 years ago. I grew up here in the 1970's when most Americans couldn't find Seattle on a map, and when our industry was logging and being a shipping port. The day Boeing passed Weyerhauser in employees, revenues, etc, was a big shift. 1st Ave through the center of town was known as the most perverted place in the USA, with more strip clubs and XXX rated movie theaters than most states. Shit. I used to ride dirtbikes in the forest where Microsoft was eventually built. Those millenials you talk about? The ones that moved here from somewhere else to work for Silicon Valley companies like Google, Adobe, Expedia, and the others? Ten years ago they were wearing diapers. Yeah, there are a lot of hipster Amazon programmers wandering around like they own the place, but their entire life takes place within a 5 mile diameter circle. Step outside of downtown Seattle, and they simply do not exist. Same as Minneapolis. Or Austin. In actual fact, yes. You're from Seattle, right? A stereotypical liberal haven full of rich millenials and the tech elite?
Did a bunch of conservative business cronies sneak on to the city board overnight and vote for policies to create and support these teams?
The more I hear about the actual lives of Trump voters the more it seems like they are the people who got left behind as the country progressed. If trade didn't have some benefit we wouldn't allow it but we haven't done enough to help the people it didn't benefit so they're basically being told they just don't matter. Republicans or conservative parties in general always seem to run on a platform of helping those people or looking out for them but never following through. Now Trump comes along and he doesn't sound like all those guys who lied to them so they think he'll actually do something this time. I think they place their anger on progressiveness because they were left in the dust when it happened. Just my thoughts lately.
That's the truthy story, but not the accurate one. Trump voters have higher than average incomes and less than average unemployment than the general population. The downtrodden are not who are propelling his campaign, even if it's a convenient lie we tell ourselves, because what educated person would support this man? Hence the conclusion about race.
I think you're overlooking the partisanship angle. I know two intelligent, worldly and only-kinda-racist rich white people that are voting for Trump. They're not voting for him because he's racist or because he wants to build a wall - they're voting for him because he's the Republican candidate, goddamn it and that's what we do. Yet despite all that, Republicans are still with him. Which is why the election is so close.And you couldn't have come up with a better individual to test that loyalty. Donald Trump is a recent convert to conservative ideology, which he expresses with absolutely no evidence of sincerity. He offers something to alienate every key constituency in the GOP, whether it's his occasional forays into isolationist talk (anathema to the neocons and other national security conservatives), his protectionism (abhorrent to the business conservatives), his libertine lifestyle and lack of religiosity (a no-no with the Christian right), or his lack of concern with cutting spending (distressing to the Tea Partiers). Then there's the fact that he is, in nearly every way you could imagine, a revolting human being. Barely a week goes by in which we don't learn of some new dimension to his awfulness. If there's any virtue he embodies or character flaw he has avoided, it's hard to think of what it might be.
Yeah but he got to the top of the ticket on the backs of these people, despite all his known flaws. Partisanship can explain his ability to hang around despite his conservative bona fides, but it can't explain his rise, which (ahem, "THEY'RE RAPISTS") was a foundational racial appeal. Also, the rich white guys I know are all heavily racist, but ultimately vote for who will lower their taxes, qed.
Do we know what industries they are typically in ? Someone who works in the oilsands in Alberta has a much higher income than me but they're also just waiting for another bust while the government seems to turn further and further away from their industry.
I haven't seen data that granular. Speaking from personal experience (not data, but instructive nonetheless) I know a retired Lear exec, a retired high up at GM, a retired Navy and commercial pilot, a man who used to own a wood milling firm, and a vascular surgeon who all support him. They are all rich and persistently so.
I used to be impressed at David Wong's schtick until I realized that he's taking simple, insightful concepts and dumbing them the fuck down and adding a lot of fart jokes and snark to make his point. I still think the point needs to be made, and I think that the dumbing down and snark expose the ideas (which are important) to a larger audience. But I think the country mouse/city mouse discussion could probably have been had at a slightly more elevated tenor, even in the hallowed pages of Cracked.
The commentary I added is of course a vast simplification. I have a heavy appetite for destruction right now (ironically), and it's not likely to get better within the week. However, there's also a grain of truth in my partly facetious claim. I don't think we've ever resolved the slavery question satisfactorily, and until we do the Confederacy (and their northern sympathizers) will wield too much influence in our politics.