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comment by OftenBen
OftenBen  ·  101 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: The Last Children of Down Syndrome

Here's some hot takes.

1. Only wanted, intentional pregnancies should ever take place.

2. No unwanted children should be conceived or born.

3. No child should be forced to be born with disabilities. It is irresponsible behavior on the part of parents to not do everything in their power to save their children the heartache of lifelong disease and suffering orders of magnitude above human baseline.

4. It nauseates me to no end that this article is arguing that more people with disabilities should be born when we cannot step up on a global stage to protect the lives of the disabled that live right now. It nauseates me to no end that the goal of human society at present seems to be to generate as many living people to suffer as badly as possible.

5. If you want more than 2 kids your taxes should go up. Christians have used their breeding advantage and brainwashing to manipulate liberal democracy and will continue to do so.

6. It's bullshit that healthy people get to say living with a disability is tolerable. This isn't fucking Denmark and Americans continue to demonstrate that we will NEVER be able to think and act with enough collective willpower to improve the lot of our least fortunate.

7. The stereotypical image of the smiling happy easy to manage verbally communicative Downs patient and his wealthy, selfless nordic mother presented by the article is a gross misrepresentation of the average quality of life experienced by the average downs patient, particularly in the United States where social support for such ranges from limited to non existent.

8. Fuck this author and viewpoint in the neck. STOP. INTENTIONALLY. BREEDING. MORE. SICK. KIDS. BASTARDS.





ecib  ·  100 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I'll say this.

A good friend of mine was a teacher for a decent stretch of time, and focused on teaching autistic children. She found it extremely rewarding but that's inconsequential and completely besides the point. She always had a lot to say about how happy and full the lives of her students were. I remember when my wife and I were looking at having a kid, and I was talking to her about my fears that at our age there was a higher probability of genetic issues resulting in things like Downs Syndrome. I will always remember the distinct lack of time that elapsed in her reply, coupled with her nakedly honest response asking why that would even matter, -that children with Down syndrome where just as awesome and capable of radical happiness as any other.

I still think about that jarring moment to this day.

kleinbl00  ·  100 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  

I'm curious as to why we need to augment your self-loathing on this one, Ben. The article is a nuanced, long-form investigation of "velvet eugenics" and the impact of prenatal testing on parents, children and society. By your own admission you've undergone professional and voluntary education and training on medical ethics, so this is likely something you've grappled with your entire adult life. You're an intelligent man, capable of distinction and compartmentalization but lately you've eschewed all that to get people to yell at you. It seems to be a form of "the religious shouldn't breed" and no amount of discussion around "this isn't a religious discussion" or "this isn't a people shouldn't breed discussion" dissuades you from your monolithic pursuit of castigation.

It's a shame because clearly you could add to this discussion but you're instead choosing to obfuscate it with inflammatory language so the discussion can be all about you. What are you worried about us discussing? What are you trying to distract us from? As someone whose life has been shaped by congenital defects I would value your input if you chose to share it. Speaking for myself, we went out of our way to get our kid genetically tested. We absolutely would have aborted if we'd popped Trisomy 21 because yeah - that's an 80% mortality rate with profound lifestyle impacts. Some of the other stuff? We didn't plan. Fortunately it didn't matter. So I have a perspective on this, and appreciate the perspectives of others. And I'm curious what you're so afraid of.

I'm guessing there's an outward "I wish I was never born" performative dance that supports you socially, combined with an inner "but I love my fiancee and am actively planning a future" hopefulness that can't be reconciled, so you go through this "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!" Kabuki because if you have to admit that you actually hope you wake up every morning you'll be forced to address that you have something to lose now and you're just too spiritually weak to accept that the world would regret your passing. After all, if you value the world and the world values you, you might just have to press pause on your wholesale outward rejection of your entire inherited value system. You might have to examine your core beliefs and attempt to mature as a man. And it's so much easier being the angry product of arrested development.

You're getting lazy with it though. It's transparent. It also demonstrates how uncomfortable you are with yourself and your self image, which is usually a sign of readiness for growth.

I, for one, am here to help. Happy Holidays!

OftenBen  ·  100 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Stop. Breeding. Sick. Kids.

End of story.

steve  ·  101 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  

You know... I originally posted a picture of a friend of mine with Downs and jokingly said “my other friend Ben said you can eat a bag of dicks”.

But I had to delete it. This Ben would never say that. Frankly, he’d never say anything mean like that. Ben reminds me of all that is good in the world. He is a man filled with love. He lights up a room. He is happy.

So I deleted the picture of Ben because he would be sad if he knew that I weaponized him because I was frustrated with your disregard for his life. He would hug you and tell you he “loves you too much”.

So you don’t get a picture of Ben with a snippy response from me. Instead you get this response. Which is me being sad for you. Sad that you’re so angry at the world that you would rob the humanity from people who are often times the best of us. I’m embarrassed that I sunk to your level.

ButterflyEffect  ·  100 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I hope Ben had a good thanksgiving yesterday. If there’s ever a happy opportunity to share Ben with the site, please do!

OftenBen  ·  101 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Have any other sick kids to trot out with big sad doe eyes and make scapegoat of?

user-inactivated  ·  101 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Might want to back off here OB, you're pushing it.

OftenBen  ·  101 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Nah.

Advocating for the spread of disease is.

cgod  ·  101 days ago  ·  link  ·  

If I was pregnant and found out my kid was going to be like you I'd get an abortion.

OftenBen  ·  100 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I should be dead 4-5 times over. Mother nature agrees.

cgod  ·  100 days ago  ·  link  ·  

So is all your anger really just rage at god over your fate?

Are you even willing to answer yourself honestly?

OftenBen  ·  100 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Stop. Breeding. Sick. Kids.

End of story.

OftenBen  ·  101 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I'm so intensely nauseated at the idea of parents intentionally giving birth to sick children when they knew and could have done otherwise.

You must hate kids.

OftenBen  ·  101 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I'm sorry, at any point in this did I say that I believe that we should mistreat people with Downs or any other disability? I firmly believe that we should treat people with all varieties of disability with nothing less than the upmost compassion and with as much dignity as we are capable.

THAT. IS. DIFFERENT. FROM. SAYING. DISEASE. IS. THE. SAME. THING. AS. HEALTH.

Grotesque.

user-inactivated  ·  101 days ago  ·  link  ·  

That's just assuming human life has little to no value. You're projecting your own conscious experience on what you assume would be that of the yet-to-be-born.

OftenBen  ·  101 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I value human life too much to see it wasted and abused as we continue to do when we have the tools and knowledge to do better.

user-inactivated  ·  101 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Wasting and abusing life is your opinion, not an objective fact. It was the primary motivation behind the idea of eugenics.

Should low-IQ people be not allowed to have children?

Should poor people be not allowed to have children?

Should rich people who have reprehensible belief systems be not allowed to have children?

Do you see how quickly this becomes a problem?

Did it also occur to you there are people who wanted children and then regret it, as well as people who didn't want children and now don't regret it?

OftenBen  ·  101 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Nah I've never once given thought to that idea in all my literal years of study of the issue while in college, while in my ongoing and repeated ethics training at work and in my private reading and study on medical ethics. Has never occured.

You, and steve here are advocating for the spread of disease.

user-inactivated  ·  101 days ago  ·  link  ·  

"Disease" can be a lot of things. Your hot takes are not just "I am 100% certain my baby will have Down Syndrome." And even then, I don't believe a person should be forced to have an abortion in that case.

People who have three children should pay higher taxes why? Because their kids will grow up to also pay taxes?

By your standards a lot of people I know should never have been born. My mother had a ton of miscarriages, was of advanced maternal age, family of 3 kids, etc. There was a high chance I could have had some type of disease, but I didn't.

OftenBen  ·  101 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Continue to advocate for the spread of disease.

Devac  ·  101 days ago  ·  link  ·  

OB, there's a difference between 'not agreeing with your' and 'supporting the opposition in your head'. You have years of training in ethics, I know you're knowledgeable of genetics and medicine. Laudable! Please, use them, and try talking to people like they're not going to, I don't know, disagree with you just because disease are so gosh darn fun. Nevralgic topic aside, lumping everyone who isn't giving you 100% unquestioned support into one bag, the selfish unenlightened far/alt-right Trump-supporting bible-thumping COVID-denying scum as I presume, insults everyone.

Can't you see it, or you just don't care? And before you say some variant of "to hell with manners, this is WAR!", you really, really should care. Not because honey gets more flies than vinegar, but because angry shouting only works on spineless, children or people already intimidated by you.

OftenBen  ·  101 days ago  ·  link  ·  
This comment has been deleted.
steve  ·  101 days ago  ·  link  ·  
This comment has been deleted.