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comment by mk
mk  ·  3245 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: The resolution of the Bitcoin experiment

I just posted the nyt article. Such a damn shame what has happened.

I think Ethereum is going to benefit from this.





veen  ·  3245 days ago  ·  link  ·  

It's been doing pretty well lately. No clue why though.

mk  ·  3245 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I am pretty sure it is from this issue. I hedged a few weeks ago because of it.

Interestingly, aside from the DDoS attacks on XT nodes and the clear censorship in /r/bitcoin that Hearn describes, there is less obvious social engineering going on. Today, many of us that follow /r/ethereum got a PM from new accts pointing to this post:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/40in7i/the_ugly_truth_bitcoin_is_doomed_and_needs_to_be/

See the comments. That post is by a new account. Someone is trying to seed conflict between the ethereum and bitcoin communities.

If you wanted to kill bitcoin, endlessly choking it at 1MB by creating a divide on that issue would be a fantastic way to do it. I don't know if it is the same group, but I suspect that there is more to this story.

b_b  ·  3245 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Haha. We get to find out what truly unregulated markets are; these people should be ecstatic that rumor mills, insider trading, and misdirection are becoming the norm. That's the free market, bereft of government 'control'.

mk  ·  3245 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I hate to sound like a wingnut, but I'm not 100% sure that this isn't some sort of 'government control'.

b_b  ·  3245 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Yes, as a friend I must inform you that you definitely sound like a wingnut. (A) Which government? (B) For what purpose? (C) Is it beyond possibility that a bunch of disgruntled coders with a lot of incentive to sabotage would sabotage? (D) Who of B or C has the stronger incentives?

kleinbl00  ·  3245 days ago  ·  link  ·  

(A) the Chinese

(B) Because BTC serves the same hedging purposes as precious metals, only with greater marginal utility

(C) Ockham's Razor suggests that "a bunch of disgruntled coders" are most easily found in Shanghai and that a command economy with a free market in trouble might very well provide "a lot of incentive to sabotage".

Let's be honest. If someone accused Goldman Sachs of currency manipulation, the world would say "duh." Goldman Sachs, for their part, allege that 80% of BTC transactions are driven by Yuan.

Funny thing happened in the '90s in Vancouver. All the well-to-do of Hong Kong hopped a plane to Vancouver, bought a house to establish citizenship, set it up with a trust to manage it and jumped back on the plane. It was hell on the Vancouver real estate market - everything got crazy expensive - but it gave all these Hong Kong nationals an escape route incase the handover to China got dicey.

China is currently facing a big decision: are they a command economy or a market economy? 'cuz right now they're kind of both and they're at the point of instability where pushing too much in one direction knocks over the tower. It's not like their economy runs on BTC, but it's also fair to say that in a currency designed for black markets, the biggest black market is likely to be interested in maintaining their control.

mk  ·  3245 days ago  ·  link  ·  

US and China are top contenders. I am not saying that this is the case. Still, when you create a new form of money that doesn't obey borders, some entities might get interested in the outcome. The CIA spoke to Andresen very early on. That's when Satoshi disappeared. This has been on intelligence radars for years.

I've been following this closely, and I'll tell you, it's weird. The PM that was sent to me and many others by many accounts is just some evidence of how weird. There are also probably people trying to manipulate the price to their advantage.

b_b  ·  3245 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I don't buy it for the simple reason that bitcoin's utility is relatively unrelated to its 'share price' (for lack of a better word. I can move money on the network whether one btc is worth $1 or $1,000,000. If the US government wants it gone, then they should be undermining it in an operational sense, not sabotaging its price, which is what this seems to be. Occam's razor does not point at the government here, I'm afraid.

Edit: I readily admit that China have shown themselves to be amateurish enough in the last half year that I might not put this past them.

mk  ·  3245 days ago  ·  link  ·  

No, I am not saying that someone is sabotaging the price. The blocksize choke point is undermining the operation of the network.

b_b  ·  3245 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Also btc has lost 10% today. Operation successful, I'd say.

b_b  ·  3245 days ago  ·  link  ·  

If that's true, then it wouldn't it have to point to China? Aren't there enough Chinese miners that their adoption makes or breaks updates? Are you suggesting that the government of China controls the large mining operations that are based there?

mk  ·  3245 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Yes, Chinese miners have enough hashing power that they determine the fork status. I doubt the CCP does, but that'd be a pretty awesome conspiracy, yet there is no reason to believe that at all. If you make a lot of money in China, it is difficult to stay clear of complications, however, and the CCP has gone back and forth on their bitcoin stance. Chinese miners have crappy internet, so they are at a disadvantage if the blocksize increases too much. Several months ago, they agreed that 8MB was doable, but it seems they have mostly walked that back.

kleinbl00  ·  3245 days ago  ·  link  ·  

It's almost cute the way you think public policy statements about a cryptocurrency have anything whatsoever to do with clandestine policy actions.

mk  ·  3245 days ago  ·  link  ·  

The CCP first cracked down, then let up on bitcoin. I could see it as reflecting a shift in strategy.

kleinbl00  ·  3245 days ago  ·  link  ·  

...or co-opting the miners.

mk  ·  3245 days ago  ·  link  ·  

could be.

b_b  ·  3245 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Right so you have a clear incentive from a huge bloc of miners, coupled to the fact that the btc power circle has their little lightning chain company, another powerful negative force on the block size. Whence, then, is the government?

mk  ·  3245 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Two tinfoil hat hypotheses: 1) Chinese government doesn't like something that escapes capital controls. 2) US government would like to delay to see if something like R3 can take hold, as it will surely have less anonymity.

am_Unition  ·  3244 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Doesn't sound very tinfoilly to me.

As for the anonymity, last I heard, the current policy for US taxation is to report BitCoin USD value owned on the honor system :D. Even though it may be next to impossible (and sitting on BTC flies in the face of what it was created for, pisses the community off, etc.), IRS probably wants to get in on any collections from that. At least to some degree, they view it like a novel stock/bond, and I'm sure you know that the total BTC in circulation is something like $6 trillion. Hah, that number sounds ridiculous to me. That's a lot of wealth.

Now, for my tinfoil: Apparently R3 will be open source? It's backed by BIG banks. Do I think they've recently rediscovered their moral compasses? Nope. Any current "open source" claims could be undermined in the future if they achieve monopolization of the cryptocurrency market. And when you've got a widely-adopted infrastructure in place... well, America still calls Comcast for tech support, but prays for a Google Fiber. I know this isn't the same as a physical infrastructure, but still, R3 has at least some potential for strong-arming, no?

Never did pony up, myself. I would have almost broken even as of a few days ago (1 BTC was $430 when I was looking to "invest"). Shoot, I might throw five bucks worth of BTC at Hubski just to be able to say I've made a transaction and have a wallet. Sorry if it's worth next to nothing a few units of time away from now. I'd be curious how many BTC donations you've seen, but if you don't/won't divulge, that's perfectly reasonable.

Also, great thread. Thanks to both you and b_b for hashing ;) it out here and not face-to-face. YOUR PERSONAL FRIENDSHIP IS CONSTANTLY ROBBING THE COMMUNITY OF VALUABLE CONTENT. Edit: Oh sorry, that was just my cat stepping on my keyboard at the end part there.

But seriously; all corrections, proverbial face-punching, and/or ridiculing is welcome.

b_b  ·  3245 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I don't disagree that the us government could benefit from btc's failure. They have motive, but not means or opportunity. The source code is out there, and who are the cia to stop Chinese miners from installing it?

steve  ·  3245 days ago  ·  link  ·  

just tell me not to panic

kleinbl00  ·  3245 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Remember back when BTC went to like $1200 and then crashed to like $150? No?

Then you sure as fuck won't remember when BTC went from $400 to $450 and crashed to like $350.

steve  ·  3245 days ago  ·  link  ·  

ha! I was thinking about that just a few minutes ago.

mk  ·  3245 days ago  ·  link  ·  

just panic a little

steve  ·  3245 days ago  ·  link  ·  

it's only money...

veen  ·  3245 days ago  ·  link  ·  

It's like one kind of ignorance is quickly replaced by another as soon as money can be made off of it. While I'm just in it for some short-term gains, how do you see the long term of Ethereum / cryptocurrency? This essay and the drama around it steers me in a pretty cynical direction.

mk  ·  3245 days ago  ·  link  ·  

One will win out. It's like trying to stop the wheel from being adopted. I am more optimistic about ethereum at the moment.

OftenBen  ·  3245 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I'd bet it has something to do with the current volatility of other markets. If my understanding of the recent events re: China is at all accurate.