The time has finally come, two long weeks of viewing and mindfuckery have come together today for all of those who managed to get through this strange anime to talk about it.
Without further ado, let's connect to the wired and chat about this avant-garde "masterpiece" as it has been hailed on some parts of the internet.
I figured I would put my comment separately, for ease of replying.
Wow, what a show. For having absolutely no idea what I was getting into, I don't know what I was expecting, but it was NOT what I watched. Perhaps one of the most intelligently constructed anime I have watched in sometime, I was sucked in by (and this is a first for me) the opening theme. I LOVED the song, and tracked down the artist before I even finished the first episode. For those that are curious [here it is] On to the show itself. From the very beginning this show has you asking questions, questions, questions. There is suicide, an internet that connects people at a subconscious level, mysterious messages from the dead, all in a world seemingly no different than ours. I find that SE:L is more interested in making one think about what's going on then giving direct answers. In a world of overstated and often overly dramatic anime, this was a refreshing watch, and I quickly devoured it in about two days of binge watching. The anime itself has more depth than average, but figuring out the main "plot" if you will is not necessarily so hard, it's the extra details that you don't HAVE to understand, but more than likely add a considerable amount of insight into the story. There are several parts of the story I personally don't have a solid theory for, and those are what I'm hoping to talk about with the rest of you once you arrive. Namely, the alien, who/what her parents and sister were, how the wired connected people. I will try to think of more as the discussion moves on. But, for now, I am hoping most people remembered and are excited to talk about it today.
One of the best scripts I ever wrote was about a young girl's descent into acute schizophrenia. I read like twelve books for that script and did three interviews. SE:L was very familiar when I first watched it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3ASerial_Experiments_Lain#Schizophrenia_and_psychosis
Schizophrenia runs in my family, so I ponder it a lot. I've often wondered why it's not something we see much of on the big screen. Did it get made?One of the best scripts I ever wrote was about a young girl's descent into acute schizophrenia.
That sounds fascinating.
Cinema would be good for exploring schizophrenia.
My initial thoughts as well, there was dis-associative identity and schizophrenia, but in the last few layers, her "delusions" start having real life impact on others, namely Arisu being attacked by the "God" of the wired. Which is where I kind of came to a stand still with what was actually happening.
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Lain is so much fun. It's probably been 8 years since I last watched it, but it's one of those things that stick with you. I love Gnostic cosmology so a scifi version of the Sophia and Demiurge story is pretty great. The contrast in atmosphere is pretty amazing too and does a great job of sort of illustrating this whole idea of the deficiency. Neon Genesis Evangelion (VAGUE SPOILERS AHEAD!) has some similar ideas running through it, but it leans on Kabbalah a bit more, even going so far as to repeatedly display the tree of life. It focuses more on a representation of Yeshua in Shinji than the representation of Sophia that we see in Rei and Lilith. Lain, meanwhile, has no discernable Yeshua figure, opting for a comparatively autonomous Sophia or maybe just a different form of syzygy. Fun stuff at any rate! Not a boring cosmology to base fiction on! If this entire post is gibberish to you, I would strongly encourage you to delve into Gnostic mythology a bit and then take a second look at these shows. You'll notice the same themes in some other fiction as well!
Well first the alien shows up in Lain's room with a grey's head, but then later Lain shows up as the alien to Arisu/Alice. Just before erasing everyone's memory, if my own memory serves. This is significant. Given the Gnostic context of SE:L, I'd say that the alien represents Higher Sophia. I'll drop a quick rundown of some basic Gnostic cosmology here, because it's going to come in handy. First you've got the Pleroma (the Fullness). This is basically the "real world". The Pleroma is made up of/inhabited by Aeons, which are sort of beings and sort of concepts. Collectively, they serve as a limited, manifest approximation of a deity that itself has no limits or borders. The Pleroma is created by what Kabbalists would call Ein Sof (and for which alternate terms are currently escaping me) through what's known as the power of limit. Basically by limiting aspects of its own omnipotence and omniscience, creating an approximation of itself that's split into these Aeons, which are distinct but connected to one another. Now all of the Aeons in the Pleroma come in pairs. These pairs, together, not only sustain themselves and further generations of Aeons but they create the fabric of the Fullness itself. Each Aeon pair emanates to create more Aeon pairs in the same way that Ein Sof emanates to create the Pleroma. Sophia, one half of an Aeon pair, breaks off to go emanate by herself, though. This is a huge mistake. Because Sophia emanates without her compliment she creates a realm known as the deficiency and a being known as Demiurge. Demiurge is corrupt, insane, and has no idea that the Pleroma or the Aeons exist. All it knows is the deficiency, a universe in which it has seemingly omnipotent power and which it believes it created, labeling itself God. Demiurge then creates the Earth within the deficiency and sets about being an angry and vengeful deity. If you look at what Christians would call the Old Testament in Hebrew you'll see a few different words used to refer to God. Three of the most common are YHVH (Yod Heh Vav Heh, known as the tetragrammaton, this is where we get Yahweh and Jehovah), Elohim (which is, interestingly, both singular and plural as well as both feminine and masculine), and YHVH Elohim. These are usually translated as the Lord, God, and the Lord God. Gnostics generally contend that the things attributed to YHVH and possibly YHVH Elohim are actually Demiurge, whereas Elohim alone is the proper God who emanated the Pleroma. Moving forward. So not only does Sophia create the deficiency with Demiurge ruling over it as its false god, she also splits herself in half and gets partially trapped within it. Now we've got Higher Sophia and Lower Sophia. Lower Sophia is stuck in the deficiency (on Earth) like the rest of us and subject to the result of Demiurge's insanity. Higher Sophia, though, is still in the Pleroma, and she's got a plan. She works together with either her Aeon partner, Christ, or a new Aeon pair that's emanated, Christ and the Holy Spirit. They're able to manipulate Demiurge into doing things to advance their cause and they also plant spiritual seeds within humans so that they can basically repair (literally re-pair) the souls on Earth and redeem the deficiency creating a whole bunch of new Aeon pairs and a smoothly operating universe. This connection between the fallen soul in the deficiency and their Aeon partner in the Pleroma occurs through a sort of enlightenment experience known as Gnosis, thus Gnostic. Christ reconnects Lower Sophia to Higher Sophia and together they set about the work of redeeming humanity through Gnosis. So, after all that, who is the alien? Who is Higher Sophia? Lain of the Wire. Lain herself is Lower Sophia. She's an essentially omnipotent goddess who's been fooled by her own unintentional creation and she doesn't know it. Higher Sophia, Lain of the Wired, does know it, though. She influences Lain a little bit at a time, she peeks into her life without revealing herself. Then what happens when Lower Sophia recombines with Higher Sophia? Lain of the Wire is now able to show up in the real world with the same alien outfit representing that she's still alien to the world, but with her own face because she's reclaimed her identity. She then makes her first attempt at correcting the deficiency, but she doesn't take into consideration that Alice hasn't experienced the same Gnosis she has. The alien is Lain herself. Her real self that the entire series is about her becoming one with, but before her real self can be recognized. First by herself, then by Alice.
That was fantastic! Knowing nothing of Gnosticism I can't really nitpick anything, but if the comparisons are true you have done a great job of putting the pieces together in a way that makes sense. My personal theory was that, the aliens were her parents, but when I saw her change into the alien herself I had to drop that one.. So, then I had two mysteries on my hands. Who were her parents, and who was the alien. Well, with a sufficient answer for who the alien was, who were her parents? Her father, from the very beginning, encouraged her to go be apart of the wired. He thought it was another world, and seemed to have dropped endless amounts of money to get her to the point she needed to be to connect to the wired completely. Her father also acknowledged that she and he are separate entities, but he loved her anyway. So, was her father just a human who had been sent there to protect let until she was old enough to discover her true identity, and facilitate her in any way he could? Was he something more? Her parents always seemed so distant and uninterested, but there were moments where I felt her father wanted to be a father, but just didn't know how.
Good luck is all I can say. Judging from what happened here, ten people will tell you they will read the book, and 1 person will read it. This was watching something, not much effort required... Reading something, I have no idea.
I liked SE:L. it's different from what I usually watch, but I've been meaning to branch out to different genres for a while now, so it was well worth watching for the Hubski anime club. if anyone gave up on SE:L on the first few episodes, I'd encourage them to at least watch 1/2 of it before making up their mind. I had no clue what was going on at the end of the first episode, but things gradually began to make sense more and more each episode. SE:L dumps a lot on your plate and cleans up the mess as it goes. one thing I'd like to comment on in the sound design. SE:L doesn't waste any of your time with the sound. you know how other shows will use background music to fill the space? none of that here. SE:L isn't afraid of silence. everything's meaningful, to the point where I began to question the meaning, if any of the humming of the power lines. on the topic of anime club pacing, I think that 1 week was enough time to finish it. granted, I'm a student on summer beak and thus have ample time, but I was done the 18th. the trick is to watch as many episodes as you can in one sitting and skip the OP/ED after the first episode to save time; you're not missing anything and you're saving like 4 minutes. someone should do a poll of us to find out how long people took to finish one last thing. was anyoine else disappionted with the character design of God? for the physical embodiement of God himself I expected something more along the lines of this. but wait, he wasn't really God, was he? no. not really. anyways this has been great! i'm looking forward to the next round.
It took me two days, but it looks like only 4 of us finished, when about 10 people said they would. Of course i'm just looking at who commented. I am currently trying to decide if I'd like to try another series or not. There was a lot of hype but not much in terms of following through. Two weeks was too much time for me, but I have a lot more time than the average hubskier atm
I tried, but I only managed to finish it today. Life was a little more important than anime for a while there. I would be interested in another one, and I should have more time from here on it seems like so I could probably jump into a future discussion on time. I don't think two weeks was unreasonable - averages about an episode a day, which is doable for most people - but I agree with your other comments that more frequent posts would be better. Every three days, maybe, to discuss about three episodes (an hour of content) at a time? edit: Also, if you're going to keep doing anime like this, more time is definitely better than less. I mean, I just finished it less than an hour ago and I don't have a whole lot to say other than "it was good" since it's the sort of thing that requires time to think about before you can discuss it very well.
>There was a lot of hype but not much in terms of following through. to be expected, as this is the internet. the small absolute number can be explained due to Hubski's small size. maybe if we posted streaming links more people would follow through, as they would be able to fine it? >but I have a lot more time than the average hubskier atm likely. not all of us are on vacation. >I am currently trying to decide if I'd like to try another series or not. i'd do it. hubski's growing and thus ore people will show up eventually, and having content will attract them.
I will probably do it again, but the time constraints will be smaller, and if I do a longer series there will be frequent updates/discussion. I think what happened here was Oh! I'll watch this, yeah! A week later they forgot about it because there was nothing to remind them.. So.. Yeah, if I do it again, I have to engage people who participate.
That would be fair, I would lean more towards 2 days myself. It still limits the length of the series, I feel. I would not be opposed to watching something with 50+ episodes, but as a group, that is quite difficult.
I wish I had a chance to watch this again before the discussion, but between all the extra hours at work, getting ready for vacation, school stuff I only got to watch it once. I got seriously into how this anime questions reality and identity. The idea that we are our memories, and through manipulation of those memories we ourselves can change. If our ability to recall memories with any amount of accuracy is greatly flawed then who are we really? If I remember myself as a good person, am I really a good person? They say we are made up of our experiences, but we have to recall those experiences and interpret what they mean? If we change our interpretation are we a different person for it? Who were we before we changed that? The next interesting part was towards the end when Lain wipes herself from the minds of everyone. If I for example was wiped from the memories of anyone I ever came across would I have existed at all? I mean yes I did things and the world changed for it, but did I really exist? It was really crazy just to sit here thinking about who I am, and what that question even means. It was definitely the coolest part for me. A lot of the nuance-y religious stuff seemed interesting to me. Like Lain in the end sacrifices herself for the good of society because of the impact she had on Arisu, and in the end she meets her "father" that pretty much reaffirms her existence. I got a really jesus-y feel from the whole thing. I mean Lain was for all intents and purposes created both body and mind which kind of seemed like the whole immaculate conception thing in Christianity. I'm not sure that it was important to the overall story just thought the connections were really interesting. I liked the connection between the Wired and the real world, and the fact that in a lot of ways that made Lain a God (she was omnipotent, omnipresent, and in some ways omniscient). Her control over peoples memories gave her almost absolute power over humanity, but at the same time what makes a God? Is it the power they have? Lain was almighty, but she was still a 14 year old girl. I had a few more questions about the authors interest in AI, and how man could in fact create a God in some ways, but honestly I wish I could have got another full play through of the entire show.