If vasalgel works as advertised, I'd sign up for the waiting list in a heartbeat.
This is great. It was always both participants' responsibility to take steps to avoid pregnancy, but now it'll be just as easy for men.
I'd want to be sure that it doesn't have any side effects, but if it was safe, I'd definitely use it. I disagree with the author of the article on one thing, though; I don't think women will be too happy about men having a "pill" of their own. Part of women's power at the moment is that they have near-absolute control over the process of reproduction. Some women "forget" to take their pill or "accidentally" break a condom, and their partners find themselves hopelessly trapped into fatherhood. Any method that gives men more control over what happens to their sperm is certain to be greeted with a scowl by many women.
I was going to attempt and refute your statement, stating at least anecdotally that Grendel's observation was not a complete disassociation from reality (I've personally seen malicious sabotage of agreed birth control procedures via a woman's "forgetfulness") .
When I googled it I only found references to the /r/theredpill and stuff I'd rather not cite if I have any hopes of people taking me seriously in the future. There is still some cynical part of me that would agree with Grendel but I couldn't find any evidence that wouldn't be terribly embarrassing to use as a counter-argument. paxprose : 0 | ixnar : 2
Do you have any other source? Perhaps the studies in which the Scotsman is referencing? I'll continue to attempt to find something that validates the thought (If you haven't caught the tone, I have a bias towards your initial argument) but I don't think its going to bode well for this side of the field. A poll 5,000 That's Life! readers hardly constitutes an adequate (or even unbiased) sample.
Why wouldn't it be adequate or unbiased? It's not Nature, sure, but it's not even a magazine that would have an interest in portraying the female population in a negative light, considering that girls are the ones paying their bills. Anyway, here's another source that suggests a similar conclusion.Melinda Spohn, a social worker and researcher at Spokane Falls Community College in Washington, decided to study why so many of her clients told her that their pregnancies were unplanned, despite the variety of easily available birth control.
More than a third of women said they had risked pregnancy in the past with men who had attractive qualities—such as commitment to the relationship, good financial prospects or the desire for a family—but hadn't discussed the possibility of pregnancy with their partner. It was unclear how many women actually became pregnant.
Dude, it's getting harder and harder to take anything you say seriously Grendel. I'm trying to bite my lip, but really? This is the study you are referencing? It's hard not to think you are just trolling: 1. "Of course you don’t look fat!" 2. "These shoes were only 10." 3. "The bus/train was late." 4. "I’ve got a headache." 5. "I’ve only had one drink." 6. "That dress looks good on you." 7. "The cheque’s in the post." 8. "You look ten years younger." 9. "You’re wonderful in bed." 10. "I love you." That's pretty ground breaking and hard hitting research there. Guess what? Women do some shitty stuff. Guess what? Men do some shitty stuff. We are humans, we are fallible. Neither sex holds a monopoly on virtue.That’s Life! magazine has carried out its National Scruples and Lies Survey 2004 to find out the top ten lies told by women. They are:
I don't think they are trolling, seems to be a pretty standard /r/MensRights or even a default sub user really.
And what's the point of this remark? What is it supposed to prove? What does that have to do with anything? I never said that all women are evil or that all men are virtuous. I just pointed out that it's quite common among women to lie to their partners about whether they're taking the pill or not. A girls magazine, not /r/theredpill, supports my statement. It seems to me like some people just like arguing for the sake of arguing. I don't see how anything I wrote warranted such a strong reaction.That's pretty ground breaking and hard hitting research there.
Guess what? Women do some shitty stuff. Guess what? Men do some shitty stuff. We are humans, we are fallible. Neither sex holds a monopoly on virtue.
The issue here is that the source you cited isn't trustworthy. Please don't play dumb. It's not a winning strategy.I don't see how anything I wrote warranted such a strong reaction.
No, the issue here is that some people are biased against anything that goes against their beliefs. If I had posted a similar poll that said "42% of men will lie to their girlfriend about their job", nobody would have reacted this way. I'm not playing dumb, and frankly I don't appreciate all these attempts to get me to shut up by calling me names. It's rude, useless and only pollutes the conversation.Please don't play dumb. It's not a winning strategy.
I don't know that the comparison you make holds water. 42% of men will lie to their girlfriend about their job...in what way?
"Yes honey I am totally being considered for that promotion"?
"No honey I love my coworkers"? "No I am not embezzling money from the company"?
All of those are lies and the outcome of the lie is hugely variable. No one would react like this to that statement because yes people lie no not all lies are earth shattering. People are arguing against you because you are sharing faulty sources. When your sources are up to snuff, we can chat.
It's just an example. If we were talking about men lying to their girlfriends, everyone would just agree that it happens, and move on; but since it's about women, people feel the need to attack me. You all hide behind the idea that the source I provided is somehow unsatisfactory, which in the context of this discussion is ridiculous. I've even provided a different source and it's been ignored. Women lie about their use of contraceptive methods in order to get pregnant, not all of them and not even the majority of them but a significant percentage; those women will not be happy about the commercialisation of the "male pill". That's all. I'm surprised that this is considered so controversial here that people are trying so hard to deny it.
I don't think that's true. I think if you said all girlfriends lie to their boyfriends people would agree with that as well because it's not necessariy gendered; people lie. I've looked at both of your sources. The Scotsmans' poll we have determined and you have conceded is non-scientific. The Psychology Today is better but again only surveys 400 women at 2 community colleges. The report there is that ~33% say they they have risked pregnancy without "discussing pregnancy with their partners"; that could mean anything (we just started dating and it would be weird to bring it up, etc) and it doesn't necessarily mean deceit although it could. Even then, that's only 133 women reporting. Not exactly conclusive. I think you are inferring that people are attacking you on the basis of gender. All the responses I've seen have been courteous. The issue is only "controversial" because, again, you fail to provide reputable sources. If you can produce more sources like the Psychology Today one, you might have a leg to stand on. I think you are overblowing the rate of women who want to get pregnant in secret or against the will of their partner. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I think that you need a little more data to constitute "a significant percentage".
I've conceded that the Scotsmans' poll is unscientific, but I've also explained that that doesn't really matter in this case. Actually the article is pretty clear about what it means. It means that those women neglected to use the pill while in a relationship with men whom they considered husband material, and the men were unaware of this fact. At least some of those women probably got pregnant as a result of this tactic; some of those men have been tricked into becoming fathers. Oh, please. The very first response was a petty attack that tried to discredit my argument by associating it with a supposedly misogynist subreddit. At least two people have called me a troll. That's not what I would call courteous. It's pathetically obvious that this animosity is politically motivated. I've provided two. I'm the only one in this thread who's provided any source for his claims, and they're both valid.The report there is that ~33% say they they have risked pregnancy without "discussing pregnancy with their partners"; that could mean anything
I think you are inferring that people are attacking you on the basis of gender. All the responses I've seen have been courteous.
The issue is only "controversial" because, again, you fail to provide reputable sources.
Why doesn't it matter in this case? You did say that but didn't really provide explanation. True you are the only one who has provided sources but you are the only one making claims. Once again, reputable to is the key word in my sentence. You provided 1 source that you yourself are discrediting. Your other source is pop-science. Outside of your thread, people are commenting on the fact that this is a neat scientific development and, contrary to your main point, speculation that women will happily share the burden. I think most other threads on the subject in other parts of the internet would reveal the same thing. Re: allegations of trolling, the nice ^ thing about hubski is that shitposting isn't going to get people very far. Posts calling you a troll are outnumbered by posts on the scientific.
^Which is not to say I don't love me some good shitposting. I just have other venues for it.
See Everyone else is claiming that women will welcome this pill with open arms. What sources have they cited for this? None. It's just their opinion and maybe that of their girlfriends. Reputable is relative. I wouldn't trust a girls magazine with accurately explaining quantum mechanics, but I think they're qualified enough to ask their readers some simple questions (are you a lying whore? y/n). I'm not sure what you mean with "pop-science", but the person who conducted the study is a professional. I'm starting to get tired of this thread. I wish people would have the balls to just insult me, without expecting me to take them seriously. I can appreciate honesty and the occasional flame war, but having to defend yourself from an endless barrage of pseudo-arguments is just tiring. You're wrong! I'm right! End of discussion! Everyone who disagrees can kiss my shiny metal ass.you are the only one making claims
Once again, reputable to is the key word in my sentence. You provided 1 source that you yourself are discrediting. Your other source is pop-science.
If you're looking for insults, you're in the wrong place, bud. Also why are our arguments pseudo and yours aren't? As noted before, this isn't reddit. We are going to critically analyze what you post without resorting to shit posts. Sorry that you are tired of it. Sorry that you don't think people are being honest with you -- I think plenty of people are being plenty honest with you about how your posts are perceived while also presenting their arguments. And to respond to your previous points: decoy questions are relevant to a survey because they help to filter out bogus answers and create more reputable research; response rate also gives you a realistic view of your data... a good response rate for a survey is approximately 10% and when you're already operating on a small pool of people, 10% is tiny, so reporting that you surveyed X number but received Y responses is critical to understanding the validity of your research; the questions are biased because you only get one side of the story (cheaters vs the cheated on).
ETA: I just reread everyone else's responses again and they are all personal. I would be happy to use this. They actually don't make any sweeping generalizations.
He's using the time-honored "deny that the other person is a competent human being argument", well tested and proved to be of good use. He falls back onto it when all else fails.
Sorry, I don't have infinite time and energy to argue with the intellectual equivalent of a dog. I explain my positions and I try to reply as patiently as I can, but even my patience has its limits. When people are being dumb and I'm getting bored, you can't expect me to keep spoonfeeding you ad nauseam. I suppose from now on, when someone makes some kind of pseudo-argument in response to one of my posts, I'll just call him an idiot and save myself time.
Actually, I've already been insulted in this thread, so I'd say this is the right place! Because yours don't make sense. How does asking a person "what planet are you on?" create more reputable research? 5000 or 500 are both small numbers from a statistical point of view, and I expect that if the difference was even bigger than that, the magazine wouldn't have reported the results in the first place. Yeah, but they got the side of the person who cheated. Are you saying that people are biased against themselves? This is what I mean when I say pseudo-arguments. Stuff that's meant to sound intelligent but is actually nonsense.Also why are our arguments pseudo and yours aren't?
And to respond to your previous points: decoy questions are relevant to a survey because they help to filter out bogus answers and create more reputable research
response rate also gives you a realistic view of your data... a good response rate for a survey is approximately 10% and when you're already operating on a small pool of people, 10% is tiny, so reporting that you surveyed X number but received Y responses is critical to understanding the validity of your research
the questions are biased because you only get one side of the story (cheaters vs the cheated on).
but why don't they make sense? you haven't alluded to it at all. as you said before, that is just an example. i'm referring to the use of decoy questions period. you said decoy questions are irrelevant; i said why they are not. sorry i don't understand what you mean when you talk about the numbers and publishing. 400 is also a small number but apparently that's enough for you to conclude that "a large majority of women" try to become pregnant without their partners knowledge. what i meant was that if you sent out 5000 surveys, and 500 people responded, you would say we surveyed 500 people; i think the average reader then reads that as 500 people responded in this way and thus is an accurate representation of a population. reporting the response rate (surveyed 5000 only 500 responded) then demonstrates the gap created by non respondents which indicates how reputable the information is. to go back to your example, one-third of 400 women surveyed said that they risked pregnancy. however, if more people responded (and since there is no report rate, we don't know how many people didn't respond) we would have totally different statistics. one-third of 400 is approx. 130, while 1/3 of 5000 is approx. 1666. another thing we've completely neglected is the demographics of the group interviewed. 400 community college students. i think your results would vary wildly if you took a more generalized survey. again i don't understand what you mean by biased against themselves. a good survey would present both questions (have you cheated and have you been cheated on). this comes back to the decoy questions. if i want to survey cheaters, i will also ask them whether they have been cheated on so they are more likely to answer honestly.
what exactly is nonsense? i think i have been very clear and tried to explain where you pointed out that you were confused.
Good thing I'm appalling! But more seriously, giving the same kind of power to men simply levels the playing field. Soon both partners need to be completely honest with each other whether to become parents. Despite the FUD you're trying to sling the article even indicates that a majority of women would support this. And as the article points out, few women are overly keen on single motherhood either way.Some of the women admitted that they had not used birth control with guys who had appealing characteristics
According to a 2004 poll of 5000 women, "42% would lie about contraception in order to get pregnant, no matter the wishes of their partner." Link Forty-two percent is less than half, so you're technically correct - the majority of women wouldn't have an issue with the male pill; but the fact that 4 out of 10 women have admitted that they would lie about something like this means that I wasn't wrong, either.
Second of all, this isn't /r/theredpill Is a single article with no citation and no methods what qualifies for evidence these days?
Oh no, the article was discussed on a subreddit that you don't like, therefore it's not valid evidence! Come back when you have a decent argument, please. The original poll was created by "That's Life!" - a magazine aimed at girls, but obviously run by evil anti-feminists.
It doesn't report its methods, it doesn't document decoy questions ("What planet are you on?"), it doesn't report the response rate ("We questioned 5,000 women, 10 responded"), it's questions are biased ("Have you cheated on" vs. "Have you been cheated on"), it hasn't been replicated, the magazine's content is on level with bigfoot chasers, it's a magazine. I've already put more effort into disqualifying your study as you have in defending it. Why should I trust a survey from more than a decade ago whose credibility is somewhere a few orders of magnitude below Cosmo? a.k.a. almost everywhere else on the internet. P. S. Troll harder.other than it's been ignored by feminist websites?
That seems irrelevant. That seems unlikely. Explain how they're biased. It's not a quantum physics experiment, it's a simple poll. So what? It's no worse than the average newspaper. You're just throwing mud at me and hoping that some of it will stick. Also you have no idea what a troll is. Protip: troll =/= person who disagrees with you. Lurk more.it doesn't document decoy questions ("What planet are you on?")
it doesn't report the response rate ("We questioned 5,000 women, 10 responded")
it's questions are biased ("Have you cheated on" vs. "Have you been cheated on")
it hasn't been replicated
the magazine's content is on level with bigfoot chasers, it's a magazine.
Because we have no way of judging the bias of the poll takers or if they're even taking an adequate sample of an opinion. You can't even argue that 5,000 women took that poll. What if a man (or a large number of them) took the poll? What if a single developer troll took the poll with the sole intent of if swaying the data 5000 times? Did the analysis at That's Life! take into consideration possible corruption of their data, what steps did they take to prevent it? We don't know, we have to take the poll taker's evidence as unbiased and true. This is inherently unscientific. The output of the poll is not validated or cross referenced with any other credible studies in the article aside from hear-say from other online polls. The poll should be ignored by feminists, and non-feminsts alike due to the fact it is not rationally persuasive in the context provided by The Scotsman.
So don't date someone who's views are inconsistent with your own. Some men feel this way about female birth control. I am not one of these men, and I wouldn't date a woman who felt this way about male birth control. My girlfriend, at least, was fucking pumped when I showed her this article.
And there's literally no way to check for honestly on a personal level until she's using your stolen sperm to make illegitimate babies? Honesty is one of the top traits I look for, personally. Being a compulsive liar, or even lying to cover your own ass is a turn off.
This is great, honestly I'm all for it. It makes more sense to unload the gun instead of relying on a bulletproof vest.
2020, huh? That's nice. I'll be 48 years old. I guess there's a chance I'll bang someone fertile, but I doubt it.