a thoughtful web.
Good ideas and conversation. No ads, no tracking.   Login or Take a Tour!
comment by _refugee_
_refugee_  ·  3887 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Girls and Boys Together: Gender on Hubski

I think gender is an interesting and difficult issue online.

I purposely picked a gender-neutral handle when I started - oh, can I call it "foruming"? - spending time on Reddit and then, Hubski. I didn't want to be judged for my gender. And, I don't mind it being assumed that I'm male. In fact, in many posts I'll deliberately not state my gender or omit facts that might point out that (shocker!) I'm a girl. In fact, the name I use for poetry writing is just my initals and my last name - gender neutral. I don't want gender to come into play when it comes to a person's online opinion of me. I don't mind it being assumed I'm male or "just one of the guys" or whatever.

To weigh in on the conversation going on with insomniasexx and theadvancedapes below: I have both male and female friends. Sometimes I feel more comfortable with males, sometimes with females. I think I generally like hanging out with males a little bit better but for me there's unfortunately also a trust element that comes into play with guys that doesn't with girls: can I trust this guy to respect my personal space, can I trust that he is going to maintain the friendship, essentially, instead of seeing me as potentially something more.

kleinbl00 gave me advice in that thread I posted about my brother being an asshole - you remember that one? - and treated me like a dude and gave me advice that I think might have been slightly different if he'd known I was female. But you know what? I want the male advice. I don't want the censored advice or the advice that speaks down to me because I'm the "weaker gender" and I don't have to "man up." Fuck that. I want to have to man up and be as aggressive about what's important to me as anyone else - any other man. If you've got expectations for a man in a given role - I want to meet them. I don't want them changed because maybe, somehow, I'm not capable.

Sometimes I get a chip on my shoulder about being female, or - physically - being small. Does this come through in how I shield my gender online? Maybe. But you know what, it's my chip, and my shoulder.





lil  ·  3887 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I totally thought you were a guy out with your brother back then. Here's the link for latecomers to this story Your narrative voice telling the story completely worked. Bravo. Regardless of the underlying reasons, being able to have your voice come across convincingly as male should be good for your fiction writing, when you want to make a male experience believable.

_refugee_  ·  3887 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Thanks!

It's funny, because at one point in the story I mention a male bartender and flirting with him, and people either just read over that and assumed the bartender was female/I was male and straight, or didn't notice it at all. That was the one spot where I was worried there was a "tell."

kleinbl00  ·  3887 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I would have given the same advice had I known you were female. When one says "flirt" one presumes there's a little bit of sexual something there and that's all that matters. Boy/girl, girl/girl, boy/boy, yeah, you "flirt" differently but the end result is the same.

I've always presumed the "there are no girls on the Internet" works both ways - I've seen first-hand the amount of bullshit one has to put up with when one is a girl on the Internet. If someone does not say "I'm a girl" I presume they'd prefer it not enter into the conversation. There is wisdom to this.

The internet is a long goddamn way from gender-neutral. Generally the best move is to be gender-unspecified.

Amusingly enough, Redditors often think I'm a woman. There is a subset of humanity that apparently believes one cannot dispense advice in an empathetic fashion without possessing ovaries.

_refugee_  ·  3887 days ago  ·  link  ·  

> I would have given the same advice had I known you were female.

That's good. That's the kind of reality I'd like to exist in. Unfortunately I don't think it's always true for a lot of people online. Your advice was harsh - but I appreciated it, in part because of its harshness - and I did wonder if it would have been less harsh if my gender had been known.

> If someone does not say "I'm a girl" I presume they'd prefer it not enter into the conversation. There is wisdom to this.

I'd agree...though I think it also still plays into the male-dominated nature of the internet/forums/whatever. A guy doesn't have to state he's a male in order for it to play into the discussion; the gender is assumed. I know I'm guilty of this - I for one assume all are male unless proven otherwise, and didn't realize insomniasexx was female at first. Of course, my chip-on-my-shoulder and determination to be treated "like any man" plays into that kind of patriarchy as well. Instead of wanting to prove I'm as good as members of other genders, I shouldn't feel that kind of pressure to "measure up" - in a perfect world, anyway, right? In the meantime I'll just be a pugnacious asshole.

> Generally the best move is to be gender-unspecified.

Yeah. I agree.

kleinbl00  ·  3886 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    That's good. That's the kind of reality I'd like to exist in. Unfortunately I don't think it's always true for a lot of people online. Your advice was harsh - but I appreciated it, in part because of its harshness - and I did wonder if it would have been less harsh if my gender had been known.

I get this a lot. I think it comes from working in an industry were there is no time for bullshit and where only your friends will be honest with you. You're right - much of The Internet sucks ass at empathy.

    I'd agree...though I think it also still plays into the male-dominated nature of the internet/forums/whatever. A guy doesn't have to state he's a male in order for it to play into the discussion; the gender is assumed.

Devil's advocacy:

1) Gender is one of the driving forces of interaction, regardless of your sexual persuasion. As Heinlein was wont to point out, eunochs do not create art.

2) There is no such thing as a gender-neutral person. Removing gender from a discussion is unnatural and alters the conversation.

3) Tradition holds the default gender to be male. This is not a GOOD thing, but it is a thing. So, in the unpoliced wilds of the internet where chances are good the person you're talking to IS male, it's natural to presume they're male and shape the conversation that way.

insomniasexx  ·  3887 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    I for one assume all are male unless proven otherwise, and didn't realize insomniasexx was female at first.

Now I don't feel as bad about not realizing you were female until...this morning. Honestly, it's not that I thought you were male, I just didn't think about it at all.

During some posts I will visually imagine the person behind the computer screen similar to how one would envision characters in novels. But this only happens if the person is telling a story, if they are just talking about something they just sort of a gray blob or their gender doesn't even cross my mind.

I wish I had read your brother/bar story before I knew you were female because it would be interesting if I would've seen it. I related to that story a lot - I have a little brother who has always played sports and been popular and has a douchey jock attitude sometimes. I might have thrust myself and my gender onto you because I relate to it so much. I'm not sure.

_refugee_  ·  3886 days ago  ·  link  ·  

My brother, the biggest asshole I know. And until recently I was confused about why I went for asshole guys...until I realized that my brother and my relationship with him probably has something to do with it! If it's one of the models of 'affection' I've had in my life since day 1, it probably makes some sort of sense that I sometimes mistakenly go for that in dating relationships.

Don't feel bad at all! I keep my gender somewhat quiet here (blew my cover with my poetry submissions a bit doe) on purpose.