That's one way to look at it. Another way is this: The system that precedes us also made it possible for us to be born. It includes science, medicine, education, cooperation, compassion, and sometimes love. It also includes a long list of bad stuff created by humans. "The system" that precedes us is humanity's attempt at "civilization" thus far. There are various ways of leaving the system. Most of us just try to work within it enjoying the advantages of civilization and fighting, where possible, the disadvantages. Can you explain your thoughts further, organic ant?
I'm not sure that I agree that we're here thanks to the system. We're here thanks primarily to a biological process and secondly due to the support of our families and communities. All the things you mention, such as science and education, etc, are not inherent to the economic system we have. I mean there must be a way of meeting all of the needs of humans while still evolving in all aspects of human endeavour, without having to have an economic system which puts a monetary value on what a person must produce in order to survive. Agreed. And more and more I feel this is by no means the pinnacle of what we can achieve as a technological civilization. I measure this (and this whole topic came to mind) by how happy people around me are. I have lost count of how many people I know work jobs they don't like in order to survive. It's a sort of economic slavery where money is the leverage to keep people in a 9-6pm occupation doing non-fulfilling tasks that drives them to depression. You could argue that people are free to change professions to do whatever they like but what if what they like isn't economically viable? The economic system has decided what things are and aren't valuable and therefore people must gravitate towards things that pay rather than those things they enjoy doing. I have had conversations with several work colleagues and friends who are incredibly unhappy with life (some on anti-depressants) but can't put the finger on why. They all agree that they feel subjugated to live in a way that doesn't full fill them but they don't know how to change while still meeting the financial expectations the system has of them. Hence my question and mental exercise came up, why must we have to work to exist? Is this not a form of slavery? And how could we change "humanity's attempt at civilization" to provide for human happiness and fulfilment instead of financial capital?"The system" that precedes us is humanity's attempt at "civilization" thus far.
This isn't a crisis or modernity. People have been unhappy since the dawn of time. Successive technological advances have all been (at least ostensibly) attempts to alleviate our collective privation and penury. Even though middle class people in the developed world pretty much are free of starvation, happiness still evades most people. I think this is more a fact that people view happiness as a thing to be achieved rather than one emotion among many. Life is a process, and there is no end game. Of course none of us chose to be born, but we each have the choice whether to keep living. The fact that so few of us choose so is a testament to life not being all that bad, no? At least, it seems to be the lesser of the two evils, so to speak.
Do you mean that people are responsible for their own (un)happiness and it's not the system's fault or responsibility to cater for that? Are you suggesting suicide as a solution to unhappiness with a lifestyle you didn't choose and don't know how to change?!This isn't a crisis or modernity. People have been unhappy since the dawn of time.
Of course none of us chose to be born, but we each have the choice whether to keep living.
I mean people mistake modernity as the cause of unhappiness, and if you pay attention to history, it's easy to see that unhappiness predates modernity by millenia. Therefore, modernity (or capitalism) is not the primary cause of our shared despair. No. I'm saying it's obviously the better choice for most people to learn to cope with life. There's a lot one can get out of living, and complaining isn't a great help in our struggle.Do you mean that people are responsible for their own (un)happiness and it's not the system's fault or responsibility to cater for that?
Are you suggesting suicide as a solution to unhappiness with a lifestyle you didn't choose and don't know how to change?!
I'm not sure that the kind of unhappiness of the past, when we struggled for basic needs, can be compared with today's unhappiness with the modern consumerist lifestyle which is long past the state of survival. What would you attribute our shared despair to? A pre-deterministic human "nature"? What would you suggest that people who are unhappy do to help in our struggle?I mean people mistake modernity as the cause of unhappiness, and if you pay attention to history, it's easy to see that unhappiness predates modernity by millenia.
Therefore, modernity (or capitalism) is not the primary cause of our shared despair.
There's a lot one can get out of living, and complaining isn't a great help in our struggle.
That's quite a guess. Can you not conceive of more than one (the current) social order that would be able to provide for human needs? I never said that all the systems are problematic. I'm questioning the ultimate incentive and goals of the current system, which is in the end an abstraction of reality in the form of (almost always) profit.
There are many, but none yet have been as efficient, or lead to nearly as good as our current one. The goal of the current system (in theory) is not to lead to the most profit, but to lead to the most competition and making everyone do the best thing for other's through them chasing the goal of profit. Government sets the goals, the environments, etc, to cause this to happen, and free actors will help others on their own time and with their own goals in mind.Can you not conceive of more than one (the current) social order that would be able to provide for human needs?
I'm questioning the ultimate incentive and goals of the current system, which is in the end an abstraction of reality in the form of (almost always) profit.
I am of the opinion that we can't have the changes necessary to improve society until an earth-wide catastrophe takes place. The pre-existing framework we're talking about has divided people along pretty trivial lines that we as individuals refuse to overcome for whatever reason. Trying to impose the changes that'd approach benefiting more rather than the few gets you baby steps in certain areas of the larger construct. Even history shows that positive change has a habit of being preceded by a "physical" event (war, protests, natural disasters, etc.) It seems that humanity, as a majority, is still unwilling to accept each other as equals.
I have to depressingly agree.I am of the opinion that we can't have the changes necessary to improve society until an earth-wide catastrophe takes place. [...] It seems that humanity, as a majority, is still unwilling to accept each other as equals.
I think you are both excessively optimistic. It's pretty rare that catastrophe results in a better society (you specify earth-wide but if you look at history earth wide didn't have to be all that big to be everything a society knew). Sure now and then things go a bit better after something terrible (WWII, The fall of the Assyrian Empire) but for the most part it's just despots and starvation.
Can you expand on what these ways are? There are various ways of leaving the system.
organicAnt - you are asking many good questions, including this one: 1. Ways of leaving the system - yes, suicide was one thing I had in mind. There are people who live without money. Watch the trailer for this video. Ultimately, it depends on how you define "the system" and what parts of the system you want to leave. Do you want to leave libraries? Do you want to leave the world wide web? These are all parts of the system, created by people in jobs who pay taxes. It might be a good idea to figure out which parts of the system you think are brilliant and which are oppressive. Part of you is a consciousness vibrating from ear to ear. How much control do you even have over that? It is subject to hormonal changes, caloric intake and so on. No one knows the answers to the questions you ask. Large-scale change in the direction of goodness is so glacially slow. Some changes seem to create more widespread happiness (various movements towards greater human rights and democracy); some changes seem to create more grief, some do both at once (the industrial revolution leading to environmental degradation, wage-slavery, and shit jobs but also labour-saving innovations that free up time for creativity.) What can any of us do? I think the Occupy movement was on the right track. Please immediately stop whatever you are doing and read this list of goals of the occupy movement. It is called This is our one demand. I think it will show you that many many people are thinking about the question, "what can any of us do?"Unhappiness predates modernity by millenia
thanks for that b_b - that thought made me giggle.What would you suggest that people who are unhappy do to help in our struggle?
and the previous two questions in response to b_b. These questions deserve long form answers and I'll put them in the queue. As for short answers:
Thanks lil I appreciate the constructive reply. Suicide wouldn't even cross my mind as a suggestion for those who suffer from depression due to feeling subjugated. It feels incredibly brutal and heartless. Is the social order so rigid and are we so excluding that we can't come up with a compromise order that supports everyone instead of creating divide, inequality and showing the door to those who just don't fit in? I've been aware of the moneyless man, Mark Boyle for a while. Thanks for reminding me. I like his way of thinking and perhaps this is the plunge that one must take to be free of the pressures of the modern economic society. In his year without money, he does become a sort of outcast though. Living in a little caravan on someone else's land and out of the goodwill of many people. Again, I was hoping more for a systemic change that is supportive instead of exploitative and excluding as soon as you can't handle it. Of course we need all the social services and technological advances. I have never hinted to renouncing where we're at today. As I mentioned to someone else already, I'm simply questioning the methods and incentives of the system. Absolutely, if there were straight answers I don't think this thread would have started : ) But once in while, I think it's healthy to stop and question why are we doing the things we do. If we had the opportunity to start a civilization from scratch is this the setup we'd come up with? Is this the best there could ever be? This is what I'm interest in, because from looking around me it feels like the monetary system is great at creating wealth for a few at the expense of grief for many. And this surely can't be the best that we can come up with. I agree. I followed this closely and watched it being crushed with police brutality. This is how unhappy people are treated, you either shut up and play ball or you get crushed. No wonder people fall in despair and depression when they see what happens to alternative ideas. Thanks for the link. I read this is our one demand. Definitely a good starting point even if some of the demands are a bit vague on how they could be achieved. The fact that people are thinking and searching for answers is encouraging. Perhaps this is what's needed, an official Ministry of Change to address the concerns of the disillusioned and overtime come with legislation to integrate them? I'm sure many will let me know with many examples of why this is a silly idea. I welcome any other inclusive suggestions. Thank you for engaging.Ultimately, it depends on how you define "the system" and what parts of the system you want to leave. Do you want to leave libraries? Do you want to leave the world wide web? These are all parts of the system, created by people in jobs who pay taxes.
No one knows the answers to the questions you ask. Large-scale change in the direction of goodness is so glacially slow.
I think the Occupy movement was on the right track.
Sometimes it takes 100 years for ideas to gain popular appeal. For example, Seneca Falls: 1848 - women made a declaration of "sentiments" and "resolutions." In other words, grievances and demands. It took well over 100 years, but all of the resolutions have been made into law. It is important to realize that their work then, their writing and fighting, led to the current freedoms women enjoy here and now. I just quoted from my blog if that sounds familiar.But once in while, I think it's healthy to stop and question why are we doing the things we do. If we had the opportunity to start a civilization from scratch is this the setup we'd come up with? Is this the best there could ever be?
This is not working out too well for many people. People have an amazing capacity for happiness though and will find it even in a shit system. There is a lot of potential for a new system to arise and inspire masses of people. It's happened before.
Do I sense disdain and a hint of sarcasm? This was a perfectly legitimate question. If you are happy with your life and don't see anything wrong with how things are set-up around you or where they're heading then you won't get much out of this thread.