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comment by veen
veen  ·  2960 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: My Students Push Back

    "I understand why using “which” to refer to an idea instead of a single noun is syntactically wrong....

I don't understand it entirely. What constitutes an idea? These are some of my recent usages of the word which. Did I get it wrong somewhere?

    the gist you mention, which is the main topic of the video

    But I also really enjoyed The Ballad of Mr. Steak, which is a stylistic precursor to

    that is the part that resonated the most with me. Which might explain the urge that I always have

    Tesla isn't prevented from driving by transportation authorities, which is the point I was trying to make

I do recall that one shouldn't use relative pronouns to start a sentence. Other than that, these seem like good uses to me. For me, concise and unambiguous writing is more important than getting the minutiae of writing correct.





user-inactivated  ·  2959 days ago  ·  link  ·  

But I also really enjoyed The Ballad of Mr. Steak

me too

lil  ·  2960 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I would say two of your examples are clear re. exactly what noun "which" is referring to. In two, "which" seems to refer to an idea.

veen  ·  2960 days ago  ·  link  ·  

So why then is that syntactically wrong and referring to a noun syntactically right? (Also...ideas and nouns are not mutually exclusive.)

I feel like I'm missing something here.

goobster  ·  2959 days ago  ·  link  ·  

A test I use for "which" is to try removing it from the sentence entirely. If the sentence still works without it, then you were using it wrong.

From the examples above:

the gist you mention, is the main topic of the video

But I also really enjoyed The Ballad of Mr. Steak, a stylistic precursor to...

(the Tesla sentence is just poorly written and needs to be rewritten. Maybe: "The point I was trying to make is that Tesla isn't prevented from driving by transportation authorities...")

veen  ·  2959 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Not a bad idea. In my defense, those are only parts of sentences (the second one is actually from Bfx, whoops...) and I don't think leaving them out in the full sentence works well:

    But it is safe to say that Tesla isn't prevented from driving by transportation authorities, which is the point I was trying to make.)

On the other hand, I would still use 'which' in occasions where it can be dropped just to put extra emphasis on the relation between what comes before and after. This is also why I started that sentence with 'Which might explain..': during reading / subvocalizing, the emphasis intuitively falls on the 'which' part. Which is what I intended.

goobster  ·  2957 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Right. And using "which" that way totally works, too.

However, it is a word that is used more often when spoken, than in writing.

"Which might explain..." is something you would speak out loud. Or write in a script.

But due to the multiple meanings and usages of "which", when writing for clarity you would want to rewrite the sentence to eliminate the use of the word completely.

The Tesla example you give is a case in point: It just isn't a well-written sentence. It's ok, sure. But not well written. The point is unclear, it's a half-thought, not a complete sentence, and the subject (the point you were trying to make) is buried at the end of the sentence.

If I were a copyediting your work, I would encourage you to rewrite the entire thought, which would include this sentence, and probably the two prior to it as well. (See how I snuck "which" in there? :-)

"The point I made earlier was that the transportation authorities do not prevent Tesla from driving in automatic mode." Now you have a complete sentence, with an obvious subject, position, and assertion, and have eliminated probably two other sentences around it.

Can you tell I kinda love copyediting? :-) I'm a total geek for this kind of shit. Just ignore me... I'm entertaining myself here... :-)

veen  ·  2957 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Can you tell I kinda love copyediting? :-) I'm a total geek for this kind of shit. Just ignore me... I'm entertaining myself here... :-)

Of course I can tell! You have communicated your enthusiasm well. I also wouldn't have been content with that sentence if it were to be published.

I know this isn't exactly the discussion we were having, but I wonder what amount of effort you put in your comments here on hubski. I approach writing comments here more like a (thoughtful) conversation than anything else. That's why I slip in elements of spoken English into written posts (and I know I'm not the only one who does that). Writing here doesn't feel like the final recorded thought that lil mentioned earlier, so I am okay with imperfections.

Does that excuse me from writing clear and unambiguously? No, but I don't think that I should always strive for perfection either. The context of our conversation encourages and benefits from good writing, but it is not a prerequisite. If it were, I wouldn't be posting here as regularly as I do.

Most of the time I do put a great amount of effort in writing here - this comment alone took me over half an hour - but if I punch out a comment on my phone in a few minutes I don't feel bad in the slightest. My guess is that you disagree on that part. :)

lil  ·  2960 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Because when "which" refers to the immediate preceding noun, it is clear what it is referring to. When it refers to an idea, it isn't always obvious.

steve  ·  2959 days ago  ·  link  ·  

feeling lost also. Can you provide a couple of incorrect examples and their corrected form?

(I have a feeling I use which WAY too often).

Sidenote - I have a nephew who used to end sentences with "which" as if he had something else to say.. but he would just trail off and be done.

"You'd have to admit, that cheese pizza was pretty delicious, which....."

it drove me bonkers.

lil  ·  2959 days ago  ·  link  ·  
steve  ·  2959 days ago  ·  link  ·  

You're amazing

lil  ·  2959 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I hope that helps. I don't think it matters that much in conversation. People usually get the idea. Writing though . . .