This has been sitting with me for a few days now and I just can't understand why somebody wouldn't take the time to research however I keep coming back to a belief in the old idea that "everybody is entitled to their opinion". I hate that idea.
The particular area that bothers me so much lately is politics as you likely guessed but it's very true for other areas of interest. Lets say tomorrow I decided all of a sudden I like cars. I would go in with an open mind, research and accept whatever knowledge people where willing to give me. Of course at some point I would start to develop my own opinions but they would be informed opinions. That seems so logical, but it seems like many people don't think that way. Hell I'm from a small town and we get plenty of people who will go on about how their truck brand is better than the other when really they have no idea. From what I gather they all break down constantly yet reliably last for years simultaneously. Now when I hear somebody educated talk about stuff like that it's generally pointing out that x brand had a bad reputation early on (possibly for good reason) and although they improved it stuck with them. Same with computers.
What I'm baffled by lately though is the number of young people in my province who don't even know we have a provincial government. ( sorry any users from Ontario) This wouldn't be that bad if they didn't know and also didn't care to comment but they do. It seems like "Thanks Trudeau" will be replacing "Thanks Obama" pretty soon. I can recall another time I was talking to somebody about First Nations issues ( a conversation they started with their opinion) only to find out they had no idea what Residential Schools were. When they attempted to say they didn't have time to research every little detail they finished off by saying " what do you do, watch the news or something". As if watching the news was lame and equated to no life.
I sat with a friend once who felt the same thing and yet also agreed with me that neither of us were all that smart. Neither of us actually went out of our way to be educated on these topics and we couldn't understand how others had ended up where they are. Especially in this age where you can not only google anything but you can google how to google well in order to find accurate info. So when these debates inevitably end with the other person chiming in that I must think I'm so smart I have to concede that actually I really don't but I wish I did.
Anyways, rant over...opinions ?
I don't think there's anything wrong with forming an opinion based on incomplete knowledge. The problem lies in refusing to change your opinion when exposed to additional knowledge, which is probably tied to not wanting to flipflop after making an initial statement that turned out to be inaccurate. There's also the problem of not actively educating yourself if you need to make a decision with significant consequences.
I believe you must. I don't think anybody has complete knowledge of any non-trivial subject. Experts may have enough knowledge, experience and competence to form opinions, but I don't believe anyone has 100% coverage. History is full of examples of experts who were wrong too. We de facto work with incomplete knowledge and incomplete information. That raises the question then - how much is enough? I don't think there's anything wrong with forming an opinion based on incomplete knowledge.
I was reading an article that discussed the difference between an opinion and informed opinion. With an informed opinion you can argue your point and the debate doesn't fall apart in a second. The example they gave was actually anti-vaccine types debating with scientists. These people wanted their opinions to be heard and respected in the same way the scientists were but they weren't informed opinions at all. I guess we always form opinions on incomplete knowledge because really we can't know everything. However to form an opinion on no knowledge seems to be happening more or at least I'm noticing it more. I found this is a very common thing in the small town I grew up in where parents, instead of teaching their kids how to think, told them what to think. So now they have this opinion and you ask them why and they kind of just stare at you. I find this with many women too who just believe what their husbands said and don't actually question it. It's insane too me and others who have moved on from small towns. In my discussion with with one man he came into a conversation saying he didn't like what they were planning to do about First Nations issues this year so I asked what specifically he didn't like about the plan... He didn't know what the plan was. I can almost guarantee though, his father gave him some opinion about First Nations and he stuck with it because this is a person he respected. It's true about changing your opinion, and I think people are protecting their pride when they refuse to admit they made an error. Generally if I'm making an opinion on little knowledge I'll make that clear. Although some people see that as a sign of weakness I personally don't. I don't think having rigid opinions is a virtue because realistically there will always be something else we can learn. Having rigid opinions stops growth.
I think rigid opinions can be a virtue if the opinion is of high morality while everybody else's isn't. Refusing to cooperate in a crime when everyone around you wishes for it (for example, looting during a revolution because everybody already does) would have to be rigid so as to not let you fall under the "majority tsunami". Hell, starting a revolution because you believe the current regime to be oppresive and incapable of change on its own would require a rigid opinion to begin with. There's nothing to learn in both situations, but there's something to lose or miss out on. Would conforming be a virtue, then? I don't believe so: uncomfortable as it might be, you have to persevere for what you believe is right.I don't think having rigid opinions is a virtue because realistically there will always be something else we can learn. Having rigid opinions stops growth.
OH GOD! PLEASE TELL ME YOU WANT TO DO THIS! I LOVE CARS SO MUCH IT'S LIKE I'M A FUCKING MEME! I kid. I kid. . . . Halfly. You know who fucking loves raccoons and think they would make great pets? People who don't know much about raccoons. They see pictures of them on the internet, maybe a few little videos here and there of them washing their food, making big, cute baby eyes, and doing mischievous, cute, raccoon shit. You know who don't want raccoons as pets? Anybody who takes any extra amount of time to learn about raccoons. Why? Cause they eventually become destructive and do shit like this. Click the video. It's cute cause it's not your house. People and politics are like people and raccoons. They take what they see on the surface, cuteness, fluffiness, and character. They think that's all their is to raccoons because they don't give them much of a second thought unless compelled to. With politics, people take the quotes and the headlines and the soundbites they see and form their opinions around that. Similarly, they're not going to give politics a second though unless they're compelled to. There's so much in the world, to have an informed opinion on everything would be a full time job. If there is something your passionate about, inform yourself, and then be an ambassador for your passion.Lets say tomorrow I decided all of a sudden I like cars. I would go in with an open mind, research and accept whatever knowledge people where willing to give me.
I somehow didn't see this part the first read through although I'm thinking it was added later and it's such a perfect way to phrase it. There is no shame in saying I don't know and that topic doesn't interest me... So why do people lie ? It's much better than the alternative of saying something that makes no sense in an attempt to fit in. That almost always blows up in your face.There's so much in the world, to have an informed opinion on everything would be a full time job. If there is something your passionate about, inform yourself, and then be an ambassador for your passion.
Well that video certainly lifted my spirits along with the fact that I don't have a raccoon in my house. That's a good observation as well and I think what makes it worse is just how much they pretend to care. If somebody says " I've never paid attention before but this year I am..." you know with near certainty that they actually aren't. And having an opinion on different matters is one thing even though it's annoying to begin discussing something only to find out the person really has nothing to say but what's really bad is when people have opinions...on facts. Like as if it should be perfectly acceptable for somebody to believe the earth was flat even though we know it isn't. Like that's just their opinion and they won't have it muddied up by facts. I sure wish those beliefs could lead to somebodies kitchen being destroyed by a raccoon. That would be so satisfying, like HA earth isn't so flat anymore is it ? One day I might start learning more about cars, however for now I think I'll just leave that stuff to trusted friends.
Fear. You think you understand the world. Then suddenly some aspect of the world changes. Either you presume that the world is a fearful place, constantly changing and in need of regular reassessment, or you presume that the change is unimportant and that you already know enough about it so you don't need to worry. I'm a little surprised that this discussion has lasted seven hours without anyone mentioning Dunning and Kruger. There's a little of that. More importantly, though, people aren't confident. People aren't self-assured. People are trying to puzzle out the world - that's one reason so many turn to God. God has few answers about Residential Schools; really, if you want to know a few things about something controversial, you have to read a lot. And you probably don't have time for that and you don't really care that much and if this were a big issue someone would have told you about it already so clearly it's unimportant. Because if it actually were important, that would mean that nobody has the answers and that we're always going to be in a constant state of having to figure it all out again. And lots of people don't have the fortitude for that.
I read up on Dunning and Kruger which really does describe many of the people I encounter. They don't think there is anything else to know, and if you point this out and shatter this belief they kind of lose it. As if they are trying to cast out this new information by claiming it doesn't matter or it's opinion rather than fact. It almost seems like a way to stay sheltered away from the world. In order to successfully do that they would have to believe there was nothing else to know otherwise it would be nagging at them. Which I suppose ties into fear as well as your last point there. To add, I wonder if there is a similar theory for people who convince themselves they are smarter then they are not because they are unable to recognize they aren't but because they are afraid of what they will find if they really look at everything. This got me thinking about a few things one of those being racism and I realized that for many maybe this is comforting. Personally I believe everybody is capable of evil and I could see how that belief would be overwhelming if it wasn't balance by an understanding that that also means everybody is capable of good. What I see with people who grew up around me is that when they start paying attention to the world they notice how messed up it is. They want to know there is a solution to the evil in the world so they say it's x race of whatever other prejudice and the answer is simple. Just remove those people. Just remove these people and the world will go back to how it was when they were a child. And then of course that got me thinking about people who say things like " The world used to be such a better place" When really the world was always kind of shitty and it's been getting better constantly. I wonder if what they really mean is there perception of the world used to be so much better when they were a naive child who didn't have to worry about world events. If that's true it's interesting how these people attempt to do things to get back to that place, as if instead of actually accepting the world and attempting to fix it they are trying to get back to this state of childhood ignorance. The adult equivalent of closing your eyes, blocking your ears and singing " I'm not listening lalala"
A single objection: I don't think the world's environment and biosphere are getting better, I think we as humans are degrading them and more quickly as time passes. I do say "The world used to be a better place," which is why I say this - but when I do, if I am serious, I am invariably referring to things like animal extinction, quality of air, quality of life as impacted by the environment, etc. I think the world used to be better in that there used to be more in it, and that we are destroying that. In terms of quality of life, though, I do think the world is generally getting better (undeniably) in that regard.people who say things like " The world used to be such a better place" When really the world was always kind of shitty and it's been getting better constantly
Ah yes I could have been more clear in my meaning. I do think we as humans are getting better at understanding we need to take care of the planet however the progress is slow. We may be better than we were in the industrial age for example but if we look farther back in time there was a time when it was better. So that statement is fair since we still have a ways to go before we get back to a better time Things like quality of life is more what I was getting at with that. Like how safe people thought the world is. People will point to an incident of violence and talk about how downhill the world is going like this is the worst time to be alive. I find it especially weird when women say that... What a terrible burden all these rights and equal opportunities must be. Others places might be slower but they are still progressing which inevitably means they are getting better.
"Confirmation Bias" Our brains are actually physically hard-wired to believe that we have made the right decision, regardless of evidence to the contrary. If you stand back and look at the world from the Moon, you can see that this simple bias explains all of religion, politics, fraternities/sororities, why Dodge truck drivers hate Ford truck drivers, $10,000 Monster audio cables, &c...
Interesting and very true. In my adolescence I began reading Buddhist stories and one in particular stands out when it comes to bias. Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era (1868-1912), received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen. Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor’s cup full, and then kept on pouring. The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. “It is overfull. No more will go in!” “Like this cup,” Nan-in said, “you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?” We can't take in any new information if we are already filled with bias. Here's a link that actually going into it in more detail: http://thestonemind.com/2012/02/27/zen-story-a-cup-of-tea/ I actually forgot about this story until now but I'm quite happy I was reminded of it. I started thinking this was just some phase I grew out of but really it was taught to me. Which on one hand means it can be taught to others but also means only if they want to hear it. The answer is never simple.A Cup of Tea
What I find the most interesting aspect of this is how we retroactively justify that our decisions, especially & even our biggest & most impactful, were absolutely the right ones to make at the time. We do this because we can't change them, and it's better to believe we made the right choice than the wrong one, but for instance I have a friend who walked out on a job without another one lined up and who has taken to recently repeating how "right" of a decision this was for him, even as he struggles to now balance his bills and works at a job he doesn't like much at all, and which he doesn't believe even utilizes the more valuable and intricate skills of his trade. (So he fears he is losing expertise while he is at it.)
It is NOT confirmation bias, because you just got into cars, so you have nothing to confirm yet. it's Choice-suportive Bias . You bough an android, then it's far better than apple, you bough a nissan, it's now superior to cherokee, You like Jazz so it become a superior musical genre, you drink wine that's now the most fancy drink in the world, etc.. Once you made a choice, you can only listen to things that confirm that choice... yeah retroactively it sound a lot like confirmation bias. hum.
Oh man... yeah. It's like the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle... as soon as you know it's a bias, the definition of the bias changes. If you don't know it's a bias, then that's a different kind of bias. If you want to keep your sanity, DO NOT read the wikipedia article on biases. If biases were plotted out like a Venn diagram, it'll look like a Spirograph drawing:
This one does offer a more complete picture of what is going on with people I am talking about although I wonder if confirmation bias starts to play a role as time goes by and we see people seek out information to back up that original choice. Almost like as we begin to learn more choice-supportive bias isn't enough and confirmation bias swoops in to save the day by steering the person in the direction of what they want to hear. That's an interesting one I didn't know about but it does describe how people do this in some scenarios such as the used car one cited on that wiki page. Or when somebody puts their opinion out there on social media and then when shown all the negatives sticks with the original. When that same person now goes and only seeks out people or information that supports their view I suppose that would then be confirmation bias.
I want to comment on this with something wise, but I wholeheartedly agree that Is tripe, and don't have anything more to say on the subject. I can't tell you why people form opinions without relevant datum. I can't tell you how to talk to those people beyond 'try not to be an asshole' but I struggle with that myself. Anti-intellectualism is still pretty hot right now, hopefully it will die out. But I doubt it."everybody is entitled to their opinion"
It's "data", my friend. "datum" is the singular of "data", and since you haven't used an article, I presume that you've meant the latter. "Everybody", indeed, "is entitled to their opinion", but recent activities in my university group made me think this over. I agree with that everyone should be allowed to think whatever they desire and interpret things to what seems best to them, but as soon as it affects any other person, it becomes not just the speaker's business - it's everyone-in-the-earshot's. I don't know how to expand on that idea at the time, but it felt important to share this bit.without relevant datum
An article I read recently put it well that everybody was entitled to their informed opinion. If somebody doesn't even take the time to think up a reason at the very least or ignore facts they shouldn't expect people to respect their half-assed opinion. Like I don't feel entitled to an opinion on which car part is best because I have no idea. Like how people have opinions on science when they really have no idea what they're talking about. And of course opinion can be about things like which ice cream flavor they prefer which is just about personal preference.
That sounds reasonable. However, I'm not sure if you can deny people their right for an opinion by saying "you're not entitled to your opinion if it's not informed". Of course they are! - we are. It's just how human beings are; right for opinion next to right to think for oneself. That being said, it sounds unreasonable to respect all kinds of opinions: not every one of them is well-informed, therefore implying and/or entailing nothing but bias and conformity - and there's nothing respectful in either of those. Think ill of others all you want - but as long as you have little or no basis for it, don't expect me to respect that. "Niggas oughta be killed" is... no. Go fuck yourself; no. On the other hand, "Pseudointellectuals who display their phony education and understanding of the world are bad to listen to and stand in vicinity of in general because they confuse others with unbased confidence in a field they barely understand, thus leading to a more closed-off and excessively self-confident mind" and so on... I can get around to that.
When people say they are entitled to their opinion it's generally because they are being dismissed. In that context it seems that what they mean is everybody is entitled to their opinion being heard. As if you can't tell somebody they are being ridiculous because hey they are entitled to their opinion. That's generally what people are diagareeing with when they say no you aren't entitled to an opinion.
This is pretty much how I was feeling when I made this post ! I struggle a lot with the try not to be an asshole part. I mean how do you get into a discussion with somebody and then try to explain that you're leaving said discussion because they don't have a damn clue what they're talking about nicely? I don't think being nice matters though, or maybe I just meet salty people. Either way it normally ends in me being called a bitch, lame for watching the news or my favourite politically correct. It's my favourite because they thought that term meant either somebody who is correct about politics or somebody who corrects falsehoods about them. It took me a while to understand how they came to that "insult" until I realized that the only possible way is if they had no idea what it meant. I too hope it dies out but I have my doubts as well.