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comment by lil
lil  ·  3238 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: The Emotional Scars of Hubski

A note in support of humanodon to all who might come this way thenewgreen --

Let's do a mini-meta-analysis of this post.

The question is "What has left a[n] emotional scar on you."

(and most of us are, like, I'm not going to go there. Too painful. We're talking about a flipping emotional scar... something happened and it still hurts. It still hurts, those things that happened. Like a physical scar, it's not that noticeable anymore mostly, after all the years, but the pain is still all over the place and seeps outside of my control sometimes, less and less all the time, but whoa...)

So humanodon, who I've met in person is the nicest guy.

But he starts to look at something that happened once (or daily, for that matter) and all he can say is the outcome -- the part of the scar that he is aware of... he realizes that he doesn't trust white people.

There are exceptions all over the place, I'm sure, but he has to cognitively work at trusting white people and be aware of how his gut white-person reaction might affect him.

You don't have to agree with me Grendel but I don't see that statement as racist. I see it as a personal expression of emotional scarring and eightbitsamurai recognized it too.

White people: some non-white people may never really trust you. It's not about you. It's about them trying to protect themselves. And then again, white people, you might have all kinds of not white best friends who would take a bullet for you or marry you.

My step-father (of blessed memory) was a very successful person in many areas of business, law, finance, etc. He couldn't trust non-Jews. He had many best friends of all religions and ethnicity, but he knew in his core that he could only really trust Jews. In fact he didn't much trust anyone in the world except my mother.

My non-Jewish boyfriend at the time resented that deeply, took it personally, felt left out.... of course he would. But it wasn't about him.

We all define trust in different ways, and there are levels of trust. I would think every single person with an emotional scar of some sort has also experienced a deep loss of trust.

Comments?





thenewgreen  ·  3238 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  

I don't trust people, because I know myself.

Grendel  ·  3238 days ago  ·  link  ·  

If I said I don't trust black people, wouldn't you think that's racist? If I said I don't trust women, wouldn't you think I'm a misogynist? Look, I'm not judging humanodon personally here, maybe he can't help feeling this way, maybe he realises it's wrong. I was just pointing out that being prejudiced against a whole group of people because of their race is the very essence of racism.

Quatrarius  ·  3238 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I was typing out more, but it ended as a rehash of lil's comment. Let's see how I can try to add more.

1: Humanodon's comment was posted in the "emotional scars" thread, which shows that it was caused by something that did the scarring.

2: Let's assume that it was racism by white people that did it.

3: You said "That's racist".

You're not wrong, but you're missing the context of the discussion here. "I don't trust white people" can be assumed to mean "I don't trust white people because I think that they're going to be racist like other white people I've known and treat me badly". It's not phrased as something to be proud about, or something to copy. It's an admission of an "emotional scar", like in the thread name. It's something sensitive.

    maybe he realizes it's wrong

It's not the thread to argue with people about what's right or what's wrong. It's about listening to people.

EDIT: I need to post faster. I run out of time to butt in.

lil  ·  3238 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Nice to see thoughtfulness. I'll post more slowly.

Quatrarius  ·  3238 days ago  ·  link  ·  

:| That's not a good result. Normally I go back and re-edit my post if I see you've already said it better. I can get that "insightful posting" cred by saying something different.

EDIT: Like right now when I realize it seems like I'm taking the things you say. Not serious about stealing ideas.

humanodon  ·  3238 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Everyone has prejudices, but I do my best to admit mine. Can you say the same? If so, rad.

Also (and this is for everyone) how much of yourself did you project into the reading of my statement?

I don't trust white people. Do I trust some individuals who are white? Sure, but as a faceless group? No, that would be absurd of me to, just as it would be absurd to trust anyone I don't know on the basis of race. It is also racist to trust white people simply because they are white.

Duh.

OftenBen  ·  3234 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    as a faceless group?

Are there any faceless groups worthy of trust?

humanodon  ·  3234 days ago  ·  link  ·  

The answer should be obvious . . .

OftenBen  ·  3234 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Maybe I should have just continued to keep my nose out of this one.

Grendel  ·  3236 days ago  ·  link  ·  

It's great that you can admit your prejudices. But don't you think the next step should be to get rid of them?

_refugee_  ·  3235 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Would it be helpful to humano or any routinely oppressed person to get rid of the prejudice against their oppressor they may have, when walking into a situation with their oppressor where it is indeed likely that their oppressor may act as they have done routinely and habitually, and oppress them?

Am I using the word "oppress" too much here?

It is reasonable to assume that, if a person or people of color has/have a prejudice, as you call it, against white people, the prejudice is as a result of poor treatment by that culture (which we can just call the DWC or Dominant White Culture for short). Humanodon has implied or stated that here.

In that case, how does it behoove humanodon to walk into a situation deliberately ignoring his feelings, which are caused by repeated first-hand experience, that it may not be safe for him there? If I have been repeatedly victimized by men in my life, I may be very careful about which men I choose to spend time with going forward. I may refuse to leave bars with strange men or be alone with them. That can be construed as a prejudice. But let's say that I've been sexually harassed or abused three times when I left bars with strange men or was alone with them. Is it smart to say "Well, I just have a natural prejudice against men because of my experiences. I acknowledge it, and now I'm going to refuse to judge other men based on this treatment, and continue to leave bars with strange men or be alone with them." Is that a smart thing for me to do?

Grendel  ·  3228 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Is it smart to say "Well, I just have a natural prejudice against men because of my experiences. I acknowledge it, and now I'm going to refuse to judge other men based on this treatment, and continue to leave bars with strange men or be alone with them." Is that a smart thing for me to do?

The smart thing to do would be to stop leaving bars with strange men and also to stop judging all men negatively. I don't think you're interested in knowing what the smart thing would be, anyway. You seem more interested in providing some sort of justification for racism and sexism.

lil  ·  3238 days ago  ·  link  ·  

A lot of people would probably see those comments as racist or misogynist -- Your two statements generalize about a whole group of people you don't know. Statements like "I don't trust women" would probably be hurtful to a woman who wants to be trusted by you. You are probably feeling a little hurt by H's statement because you are white and want to be trusted by him.

Your question to me was "wouldn't you think that's racist?" My answer is "no" - I'd think you have been hurt by black people or women or white people or whatever and to protect yourself you have decided to stop trusting anyone with any similar characteristics.

I often say "I don't like (visual) art." On the one hand, art doesn't speak to me as much as words or music do. Also I was married to a visual artist once and he somewhat ruined art for me.

If you were an artist, would you be hurt? Why?

You have choices too. You can label H. "racist" and think that your comment is weighty and judgemental and righteous and correct.

Or you can maybe say, "It sounds like you're hurting and had a shit-load of crappy experiences perpetrated by white people. it's probably wise to be cautious."

user-inactivated  ·  3238 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Someone was hurt by my statement? I don't trust myself at times! Its crazy! If I offend, anyone: step up, we can talk about it. Come over to Toronto, and I'll buy you lunch - restaurant, not fast food

Grendel  ·  3238 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    "You can label humanodon racist" or you can say "it sounds like you're hurting..."

We're talking in a thread about emotional scars, so I assume he's hurting. At the same time I also think he's being racist because, well, that's what it is. Like I said in another comment, I wasn't trying to attack him personally.

For the record, I'm Italian. Our "whiteness" is still a matter of debate. When I think of white people, my mind goes to Germany, Norway, etc. I don't feel white and I don't feel hurt by humanodon's statement.

greenitalics  ·  3238 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I am still thinking about this thread after a while.

I think it is fair to say that while others have told stories about their scars, maybe humanodon was a bit more, direct? brief? In some ways, maybe that makes it harder to empathize with/understand? (Maybe humanodon doesn't feel comfortable telling a story, that's fine, just being aware of how we say things is always a good call)

If I said to anyone,

    "Black people: some non-black people may never really trust you. It's not about you. It's about them trying to protect themselves."
I'd probably be shunned/dismissed as an selfish, racist asshole. However, and this is open to debate, I think that is still a true statement. In fact: "people: some people may never really trust you. It's not about you. It's about them trying to protect themselves" is also true. My question is, why is that okay to say to white people, but not black people? Are white people considered less able to discuss social issues? (maybe its okay to say to both? - in any case, please change my view hubski)

I'd also really like to call out minimum_wage. "tl:dr shut up white boy" and "i said shut up white boy" are not productive, blatantly racist (hurtful), and frankly disappointing - caelum19 also noted this. I could just hush minimum_wage and move on, but I would also like to hear what others think...

lil  ·  3236 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    My question is, why is that okay to say to white people, but not black people?
My answer is that it is equally offensive to say to anyone. it's equally personal and impersonal. It's absolutely unfair and hurtful to lump everyone together whatever shade you are. In fact, white people say versions of that all the time.

A lot of people believe that black experience is so fundamentally different from white experience that they are willing to cut them all kinds of slack in recognition that a white person doesn't walk in a black person's shoes.

humanodon  ·  3238 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Thanks for the kind words! I like that your comment opened up the topic. I have a feeling that so many people are taught to point out prejudice and to label any and all prejudice as inherently bad and as something that "good" people should not have, all while ignoring the fact that we all walk around with prejudices all the time.

Anyway, for those following along, I have met lil. She could be called white, or seen as white or she can be seen as lil. I wouldn't trust her, just because she is white and I wouldn't trust her just because she is who she is. I am inclined to trust her because I've gotten to know her a little bit.