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comment by ButterflyEffect
ButterflyEffect  ·  4212 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: If a monk lights himself on fire and nobody watches, has he made a protest?

I feel like self-immolation is more successful when dealing with more internal struggles as opposed to the Tibet-China situation. Tunisia, for example, was likely already teetering on the edge and that action was literally the flame needed to set everything off.

Tibet, on the other hand, has been in conflict for quite some time now against a country much larger and powerful than itself and it's indigenous population. The rest of the world is not willing to take up arms and protests for Tibet, not against China, and thus these acts of self-immolation go largely wasted.





cgod  ·  4211 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Self-immolation in Vietnam had a big impact on the world's perception of that conflict. It created more internal and external pressure on the U.S. to get out. I always figured that these immolations were primarily directed at the rest of the world and China (I guess directing at China is internal from a perspective, but I think they are occupiers even though they have a holiday celebrating their "liberation" of Tibet). The rest of the worlds lack of will to pressure Chinga on domestic anything makes the efficacy of this protest questionable.

I listened to George Shultz give a talk on CFR a while back in which he gave a few minutes to the question of Tibet. He contended that whenever the U.S. war more preoccupied with maintaining the "relation" then to trying to make change little got done between the two countries and that over time relations tended to get worse. He thought that putting pressure on expanding the rights and freedoms of Tibetans was the kind of thing that would set the chinese back on their heels and force them to make some policy adjustments. I'm sure that my summary of his argument is thin and poor, but that's the gist at least. If the U.S. made Tibet even a small issue then immolations would get a lot more media coverage and goverment attention world wide.

humanodon  ·  4212 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I hear that. It's an alien concept and for many of us, it's an alien form of protest. I mean, for many of us, yes it raises questions in that it's shocking, but it's hard to understand and empathize with. I am dissatisfied with a great many things, but self-immolation doesn't come to mind, particularly in regard to political things.

I am wary of attributing self-immolation to a Buddhist mindset, to the point where I don't do so, but I wonder if it's the Western analog of rioting, in a way.

Burning flesh smells wicked gross though. I've been to a clinic with my father when he decided to get some moles excised and man, I felt like puking.

_refugee_  ·  4210 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Side note, because @humanadon@ we've talked about poetry before, I actually had read about the self-immolation going on in Tibet about Chinese rule and written a poem about it a few months ago. I kind of wanted to respond to the author of this and let him know some people are aware of what's going...but I also would have felt hipster and pretentious doing it.

I think self-immolation is an extremely violent way to go. Although, according to my reading, you stop feeling pain within a matter of minutes as your nerve endings die, and you generally die from suffocation as opposed to burns.

humanodon  ·  4210 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I guess that's a bit comforting, knowing that the extreme agony doesn't last until the final moment. But man oh man, what a way to go.

Why would you have felt pretentious or like a hipster for responding to the author of the piece in that way?

_refugee_  ·  4209 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I think that the whole - shall we say - meme of claiming you have known something, especially knowing it first, or knowing it before a majority of people know about it, has become a trope and perhaps even one of the defining characteristics of "hipsterdom." It isn't something necessarily bad on its own but it's certainly an attribute that has been satirized with the rise of hipster culture, especially in regards to pop culture and music. So letting the author know I'm already aware of the problem he's talking about makes me feel hipster in that way. I think it's also important that I recognize that, while I may have already known about this issue (due to some news article I stumbled upon; couldn't even tell you how I found it, probably on some obscure subreddit somewhere), that still doesn't mean that people's ignorance isn't still a problem.

I'm fascinated right now by grotesque things which is why it stuck with me. Also I believe the two self-immolaters I read about were among the youngest on record, 17 and 18 at the time.

humanodon  ·  4209 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Ah, I see what you mean. Ignorance is a tough thing to tackle, to be sure. Can't make a left turn these days without being branded a hipster eh?