I don't know if I should write what I'm about to write, but here it goes. Punctuation and grammar are important. The way we write tells a lot about us. Even if we don't think it is important to follow some of the rules, it will at best show that you are not concerned about following something that is an established standard. At worst you can be easily interpreted as someone who is if not uneducated than at the very least lacking in many respects. On one end, it is very superficial and can lead to some presumptuous judgements or making a poor first impression. On the other hand, it is the writer's fault for assuming that others have just as loose opinion on certain standards and disregard 'arbitrary' (but then again you are guilty for saying that something is arbitrary… arbitrarily ;P) rules. More so, as goobster pointed out, there are quite a lot of differences between the way we write and speak. Something that simply sounds right is oftentimes a wrong way to write it and vice versa where something that looks right can make you cringe after saying it out loud. That said, it's important to recognise if perhaps the rules and standards of the language keep up with the way we communicate. I don't know how this will hold for English, but here is my pet-peeve in Polish that is pretty much vestigial but enforced strictly and for a reason that almost no-one alive remembers. And even then, it was mostly the people with higher education. Back then, you could quite literally tell if someone is of higher education by the way they pronounced even the everyday names and objects. We have many repeated letters. There's u and ó, h and ch, ż and rz. They have their own pronunciation rules, grammar, ways of spelling etc. However, most people who cared about different pronunciation were pre-WWII academics. But after events like Katyń Massacre and lesser known Intelligenzaktion have pretty much purged people who knew the difference. Today we still have to obey these complex rules, but even modern academics speak like majority of pre-WWII people. Paradoxically and for a reason that I can't explain, most of the people who still use different pronunciation live in rural areas of Poland, which while much closer to proper pre-WWII Polish sound just wrong to many people from cities. Anyway, some examples: -Chemia (chemistry), Herbata (tea). - Chrom (chromium), Hrabia (count, the title of high nobility not as in "I'm counting things"). Exchanging h to ch in any of them would look weird, but most people would say them without any real difference. And as I have mentioned, most of them are from rural Poland and unlikely to even bother with academia. Same with other letters that have dual notation. It's important to follow standards, but said standards must be: - Clear. - Reflect a way the language is used. - Allow for providing the strictest meaning that you want to convey with minimal amount of exceptions. If that's not met, it's going to be only a growing problem.
One thing that this discussion has shown me is how very different the rules of grammar can be in different geographic locations. The discussion made more sense when it was revealed that the OP is from Canada, given some of the rules that were discussed. As a person from the US, the "correct" spelling of neighbor doesn't have a u in it. Period. :p In a somewhat related way, I can usually tell within a few sentences if a person is a non-native to the US speaker. While I agree that poor grammar can be a problem that annoys me, I also try to realize that people on the internet are writing from all over the world. Should that affect the local rules for grammatical correctness in formal writing? I'm less sure of the answer to this as time goes along. I'm influenced by intelligent non-native English speakers and native English speakers who communicate well despite their relatively poor grammar.Punctuation and grammar are important. The way we write tells a lot about us. Even if we don't think it is important to follow some of the rules, it will at best show that you are not concerned about following something that is an established standard. At worst you can be easily interpreted as someone who is if not uneducated than at the very least lacking in many respects. On one end, it is very superficial and can lead to some presumptuous judgements or making a poor first impression. On the other hand, it is the writer's fault for assuming that others have just as loose opinion on certain standards and disregard 'arbitrary' (but then again you are guilty for saying that something is arbitrary… arbitrarily ;P) rules.
Well, from what I gather, majority of EU learns British English. That's also the one I personally prefer, despite getting frustrated about all of the additional u's. ;) I think that I had once a discussion on Hubski IRC that went something along the lines of: A: What? Salute? Me: That's not my fault! You guys put all the unnecessary vowels into words. For what I know it could have been 'saloute'. A: Which ones you think are unnescessary? Me: It's just "salut" in Polish But yes, I can agree. There are even some fairly sophisticated methods of detection country of origin of a non-native language speaker. Here is a full diploma project of a Cambridge CS student titled Identification of a Writer’s Native Language by Error Analysis where the author took lots of written samples and analysed the text with respect to most common spelling errors, missing punctuation, preposition use and tenses of verbs among many other factors. And it turns out to be quite reliable. And that's damn great of you, really. For what it counts I'm trying to write to the best of my ability, as nearly all non-natives I know, but it is oftentimes hard in one way or another. Sometimes you simply have to say 'screw this' and approximate grammar or punctuation, because you realise that the thing you have been writing for past twenty minutes can be done in your language in less than three. One of the things that are the most problematic for me are some of the tenses. See, in Polish it's perfectly valid to say Czytam od rana do wieczora, co robię teraz. that literally means I read from morning until evening, I am doing it right now instead of something like I will have been reading until evening since morning or whatever it's supposed to be. ;) Nonetheless, something that I don't even need to think about in my language turns to be this "what was the tense that describes something that began already, will be happening and you are in the present and relate of a thing that happens? Future perfect continuous?" No idea. I don't feel like an authority even on things that I actually study, let alone linguistics. Actually: ThatFanficGuy - would you mind pitching in to this tread? If there is anyone here who happens to have both outsider's perspective and solid level of expertise, it would be you.As a person from the US, the "correct" spelling of neighbor doesn't have a u in it. Period. :p
In a somewhat related way, I can usually tell within a few sentences if a person is a non-native to the US speaker.
Me: yeah, sorry. Had to look up how to write it.While I agree that poor grammar can be a problem that annoys me, I also try to realize that people on the internet are writing from all over the world.
Should that affect the local rules for grammatical correctness in formal writing? I'm less sure of the answer to this as time goes along.
Or, in short, if your communication is unclear, it has failed (regardless of whether it is written or spoken). Being Polish, I am not sure if you have seen this yet... Stephen Fry has a lovely bit he does about language, and someone did some excellent graphics to go with it. This is the video that changed me from a totally strict pedant (language is LIKE THIS, and anything else is WRONG!!) to someone who honors the message more than the method in which the message is transmitted:
Well, now that's a way to boil down writing to it's core. ;) Oh, I know Stephen Fry. My English teacher in high school always had some clip from QI handy when something relevant was discussed in class. I can already predict that I'm going to enjoy what you linked. :DOr, in short, if your communication is unclear, it has failed (regardless of whether it is written or spoken).
(…) Stephen Fry (…)
After living in Hungary for the better part of a decade, I was always surprised at the cultural things that made it into Hungary, and the ones that completely missed. So I'm never sure when recommending something to a non-American if they are already familiar with something or not. Glad you enjoyed the video! Whenever I start to get all nit-picky about writing "correctly" I make myself watch this video, then I take off my Grammar Nazi armband and hang my head in shame... :-)
Much appreciated, really. While I had situations in the past when it crossed the line of condescension[1], it's usually for the best to add some explanation. Poland got a good chunk of both American and British programs, and truth be told I prefer most of it over local productions that seem to strive to imitate it (news reporters try to add something witty at the end of transmission since about 2012, among other gimmicks[2]) that only makes it more jarring. Plus Polish TV sometimes will buy a licence for a series and basically remake it locally with little changes. Or imitate parts of it. Let's simply say that I can see a lot of that clueless "wanna fit with the cool kids" mindset in local TV that makes me sick. It does not apply exclusively to TV by the way. For future reference, I appreciate some context or explanation, but the odds are good that if it's from USA/UK and fairly prominent, I will know at least about it if not the thing proper. After all, why should I settle for an imitation when I can watch BBC or ComedyCentral and actually pass that as language practice :) [1] - I once had a person explaining to me who was Ronald Regan. I mean, come on. It would be like linking you Winston Churchill with added explanation "that Brit who wasn't particularly fond of Hitler". :P [2] - By the way, Polish is the worst language for puns as far as I know. It's not that wordplay is impossible, but when this list contains about 80% of our homophones and homonyms don't look any better. Suffices to say that there is no way to make one with even an iota of sense 99% of the time.So I'm never sure when recommending something to a non-American if they are already familiar with something or not.