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comment by bioemerl
bioemerl  ·  726 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Confessions of an American Pumpkin Eater

My thoughts on the thought process of the teacher.

"I want to do well and stop students from cheating"

-> one person asks to get calculator out of backpack

"Well, they are acting pretty suspicious, no, that could allow them to cheat, just use this calculator"

->other person asks for calculator

"Well, I just gave out the other calculator, and there aren't any others, and I just said this person can't get it out of their backpack, so I'll offer an alternative"

    So for me, I cheated because why the hell not ?

People are quite a bit more clever than we consider them to be. We pick up on a lot of unconscious clues and details about someone without ever realizing it. The fact you came to this conclusion leads me to think everyone "thinking" you were cheating was exactly for the same reasons you ended up with the above mindset.

You don't not cheat because you "get something out of it". You don't cheat because that's how you learn, and that's what is right to do.




oyster  ·  726 days ago  ·  link  ·  

What do you think caused you to dream up the existence of a backpack in this scenario ? Could it possibly be your subconscious desire to see the situation differently than presented not because the situation was grossly misrepresented but because the potential existence of gender biases makes you uncomfortable ? I can't say because I don't know you but eh, mull it over a bit.

The binder was sitting on my lab table right in front of me. I could have easily cheated that whole time really. The teacher who won't let somebody reach into a binder while looking away to get a calculator for fear of them cheating would not then suggest another student use a phone in a test if they were also worried about that person cheating. Which he should have been since I gave him no extra reason to suspect I would have cheated when I met him before the test and my regular teacher liked me. He knew nothing about either of us and therefore should have treated us both as potential cheaters or trustworthy students. Now, is it possible he could just have really bad problem solving skills ? Of course, which is why I never made a fuss about it but I'm not going to ignore the fact that all he really knew about either of us was our gender while reacting to us both very differently.

People think they are clever and they think they can understand other people easily by subconsciously picking up clues. I think that's largely because we make a ton of judgments about people but very few of them are ever vocalized or therefore challenged. So we naturally think most must be correct just because they haven't been disected and proven wrong.

In your own words you would actually refrain from cheating because you get something out of it. You learn. However, I really didn't need tests and assignments to learn stuff in order to get a good enough mark to be a good student. They were just annoying things I had to get done. My learning came partly from hearing teachers speak and mostly from watching YouTube videos. In college I liked reading over the material on my own for a lot of my courses and researching it myself in order to understand. The way other people learn isn't the way I learn. I had a friend actually who struggled a lot with science but when it came to the physics unit while everybody else was struggling she had no problem what so ever. The thing is though, the school system doesn't recognize that people can learn or be smart in different ways. It's just one system and if it doesn't work for you well sucks for you. So I didn't care about cheating partly because I might as well if they think I am anyways but also because not cheating didn't help me learn.

Then I suppose there's the idea that I would feel good about working hard and getting a good mark but that's a whole other can of worms for another day.

bioemerl  ·  726 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    What do you think caused you to dream up the existence of a backpack in this scenario ?

Backpack, binder, same difference "think with other stuff in it that can be used for cheating" are functionally the same thing.

    Could it possibly be your subconscious desire to see the situation differently than...

And you accuse me of leaping to conclusions, damn.

    The binder was sitting on my lab table right in front of me. I could have easily cheated that whole time really.

Okay, but my point is that the teacher is in a situation that they are suspicious of bad behavior, and you went out of your way to act "oddly" to appear as if you didn't intend to do a bad behavior. That sends up red flags, as I mention in my above post.

Also, since when the hell was cheating a thing that was assumed for women to do? Is this a stereotype I've just never heard of? I've always seen cheating as a fairly gender neutral behavior in the way cheaters are portrayed in media, at least.

    The teacher who won't let somebody reach into a binder while looking away to get a calculator for fear of them cheating would not then suggest another student use a phone in a test if they were also worried about that person cheating.

People don't always act logically or rationally, to expect people to act consistently in a rational way is absurd and idealistic. Fucks ups are made, and from your story it was clear that the teacher realized they were being a bit stupid pretty quickly.

I already outlined a possible thought process that could lead to that teacher's behavior, and describes why that teacher treated your behaviors differently. The two of you behaved differently, and that inspired different reactions.

Oh, of course, no, it's sexism! I'm sure that could have been a contributing factor, and I don't doubt that you've experienced some bullshit from people who think "women can't do science", but this instance seems a little bit far fetched/exaggerated in this situation. You have an inch, and appear to be taking a mile.

    People think they are clever and they think they can understand other people easily by subconsciously picking up clues.

No, people literally aren't aware that they are doing those things. This isn't "I have a gut feeling so I acted on it". This is cases like "I just guessed at random" yet they somehow pick right more times than not. This has literally been seen in scientific studies, although I can't cite them at the moment.

    In your own words you would actually refrain from cheating because you get something out of it. You learn.

Okay, let me rephrase that. I always refrain from cheating because I understand that even when I hold the arrogant mindset of "well, I could just learn this another time" or "I already know this" I'm being a silly teenager. The fact people keep telling me not to cheat is probably because they are a decade+ older than me and know a hell of a lot more about how the world works than I do, and their advice is most likely, better than any advice I could give myself.

I agree with you, on the idea that all things are done for self-gain. It's not wrong to do something for self gain, not at all. (for this instance, at least) It's when your self gain comes at long term harm, or when your behaviors when adopted across society would cause long term harm, that something becomes immoral or bad to do. When your behavior only leads to benefit, when it doesn't attempt to destroy systems that were only set up to protect and help us, it is a moral behavior rather than an immoral one, at least by my definition.

Asides, if you knew things so well, then why do you even have to cheat? The only real answer I am aware of is to get grades you don't deserve, to get things you didn't put the work for. And, I think the reason that is wrong speaks for itself.

When I read what you say here I am hearing excuses. "I deserve to cheat because the school system isn't good". "I get to cheat because I was wronged". I'm actually making a post right now that's touching on this topic, the idea that we tend to make excuses for things we do when we know, on some level, that they are immoral (eating meat and taking "good" care of the animals we kill), and I feel like, at least in part, that's what you are doing here.

Also, if we are going to talk sexism:

    Every male science teacher

The implicit bias against women in science is universal in society. Both men and women, I believe, will grade women's papers will lower grades when they are aware of the students biases.

    There were two key findings: First, "Jennifer" received significantly lower ratings than ‘John,’ and second, male and female evaluators were equally likely to give "Jennifer" lower ratings. The ratings pertained to competence, hireability and whether the candidate was deserving of mentoring. The evaluators made lower salary recommendations (by about 12 percent) for "Jennifer" relative to "John."

    Note: Biology professors, for example, whose classes can be >50% female, were just as biased as physicists. Women professors were just as biased as men. Junior professors were just as biased as seniors.

https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/~srugheimer/Women_in_STEM_Resources.html

oyster  ·  726 days ago  ·  link  ·  

You're not getting it. You were given an inch. An inch of my experience, something I lived, something I could have provided more details of but you didn't ask for those. You didn't even remember the details long enough to begin your reply. Instead you assume I told the story wrong or exaggerated and that you know the situation better than the person who lived it does despite seriously not even remembering the details long enough to form your reply. Don't you think that's a little arrogant ? Why do you think you did that ? That's not a question I need the answer to by the way, that's just for your own thinking.

I don't waste a lot of time on people who try to tell me they understand my life experiences better than I do because even if you don't think that's arrogant I sure do.

I asked the other person this but I'll ask you too, have you ever pirated music ? Because it's a bit odd to feel morally superior for not cheating but then steal. I'm also not going to be told cheating is wrong by a theif that's for sure.

Pointing out that my male science teachers treated me differently isn't sexism... It's an observation of my own life. The life I lived, the experiences I had which you have no authority over but for some odd reason think you do. So now not only have you told me that I'm wrong about my own experiences of possible sexism, you have attempted to find a way in which I was sexist when in reality it didnt exist.

Congratulations.

bioemerl  ·  726 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Instead you assume I told the story wrong or exaggerated

Yes, absolutely. People don't remember things accurately, and people's reports of situations are almost never accurate, especially when their description of the situation is to their benefit. I assume you are biased because people are biased. I assume you are leaving out a lot of information, because people only tend to pick up on/remember the details that support their view.

Never, never, trust even your own personal experiences. They are biased as shit, and have been proven to be untrustworthy time and time and time again. We aren't logical beings, we are incredibly biased, illogical, and self-serving.

    Don't you think that's a little arrogant ? Why do you think you did that ?

I explained my reasoning fairly well in my post, I thought, both to myself and to you. What about my description or reasoning is lacking, what would you like clarification on?

I know the answer you want me to say, that I'm scared of facing the reality that women could possibly face sexism. Perhaps, in some part, that is true. I won't deny that is possible, but knowing such things is well beyond my own personal ability to judge, and I have no indication in my present mindset that such a thing is true, instead, my general skepticism of people's experiences is pretty damned consistent across all manner of topics, especially religion and spiritual bullshit.

There are literally people out there who have been convinced they were abducted by aliens. "experience" doesn't prove anything, in fact, it makes me more keen to not believe someone than it is to make me believe them. I'd much rather have someone without direct experience, but research and facts, than someone with first party experience every day of the week.

    I asked the other person this but I'll ask you too, have you ever pirated music ?

Oh yes.

I also eat meat, lots of it, while thinking about the poor chicken with their cut throats softly clucking as the farmer it trusted holds a bloody knife.

I also create tons of CO2 pollution, ruining the world for future generations so I can drive to have a mcdonalds hamburger.

I also purchase water while joking about how purina steals water from deserts and drives african tribes to starve of thirst.

I also joke about male chicks being ground up for the process of making eggs while I make an omelette.

Lets not forget the literal slavery that produced the rare earth metals in the computer I'm typing on.

And the fact that I live in a society atop land created by the genocide of peoples.

And lets not forget that I kill thousands of bugs and other living creatures every time I go outside, for little more reason than my own entertainment.

Why, for example, does my piracy of music matter? Yes, I may be a hypocrite, but that doesn't make your cheating good behavior.

    Pointing out that my male science teachers treated me differently isn't sexism... It's an observation of my own life.

Saying that women suck at science and math isn't sexism, It's an observation of my own life. I've taught for 30 years, and the women's papers are always worse than the men's papers!

Yeah, because you are a biased person who sees in the world what they want to see. Just like the above example, where the women probably would do very well without the idiot teaching them, your biased judgement of your male teachers can lead you to false conclusions about their intents and character.

    Congratulations.

I'm going to print this and hang it on my wall, inspired to do well every day by your sarcastic praise!

oyster  ·  726 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I'm sorry but to put it bluntly I honestly have no intention of continuing a conversation with somebody who assumes they know another persons life better than they do. That is arrogance at its finest. You did not ask for more details in order to better understand, you did not collect evidence, you merely decided you knew it better based off a short description on the internet that you could not even commit to memory long enough to remember the simplest details of. Speaking with you longer won't get us any farther. You can pat yourself on the back now that somebody is off to hide from your dissenting opinions or whatever it is you tell yourself these days.