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comment by rob05c
rob05c  ·  3134 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: I, for one, do not welcome our new Neoliberal overlords.

No. I will not vote for a neoliberal.





user-inactivated  ·  3133 days ago  ·  link  ·  

How about down ticket races?

What about the Greens or the Libertarians?

Are you willing to protest in the street?

rob05c  ·  3133 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I might "vote" for the Green party. But "voting" for a third party is not voting, it's protesting. It's statistically impossible for a third party to win in FPTP.

    Are you willing to protest in the street?

Willing? Yes. Able? No. I have a day job.

cgod  ·  3133 days ago  ·  link  ·  

The odds of your vote counting in a presidential election are so tiny that there is really no statistical argument in favor of voting at all no matter who is running.

rob05c  ·  3133 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    The odds of your vote counting in a presidential election are so tiny that there is really no statistical argument in favor of voting at all

    the masses will always fail the Prisoner's Dilemma
user-inactivated  ·  3133 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Able? No. I have a day job

I was struggling to to come up cogent reply to this sentiment, but I realized you did it for me.

    I do not welcome the last, greatest evidence of the failure of Democracy to the selfishness, ignorance, and vice of the masses.

I don't know you. I don't know your financial or employment situation. But I know that thousands of fast food workers managed to shoulder a significant financial burden when they conducted strikes for a livable minimum wage.

You really couldn't make time for a couple of hours of making yourself heard on this point that you felt passionately enough about that you posted about it here?

rob05c  ·  3133 days ago  ·  link  ·  

You're right, it's more complex than that. I also don't think it makes a difference. I'm not capable of organising a mass protest. Living in a big city, I see lone protesters outside the Capitol all the time. I also see nobody caring. If there were a mass protest in my city, I might go. But even then, those fast food workers didn't succeed. The minimum wage wasn't raised. No laws were passed. Nobody in power cared, and nothing happened.

    You really couldn't make time for a couple of hours of making yourself heard

I could. But I wouldn't be.

I have written and called congressmen. I got cookie-cutter replies, and nothing changed. They didn't care.

Ever signed one of the White House "WeThePeople" petitions? I have. Ever read the Obama Administration's responses when one gets enough signatures? They're all the same. Cookie-cutter "We know it's a problem, and we're going to do everything we can that doesn't involve actually doing anything."

I'm tired of participating in the illusion of democracy.

user-inactivated  ·  3133 days ago  ·  link  ·  

For so many reasons, I wouldn't be surprised if a good bit of content on this thread resonates with a number of us. Though, when it comes to this:

    I'm tired of participating in the illusion of democracy.

Yet, the disillusionment in government yields to this:

    Are you willing to protest in the street?

    Willing? Yes. Able? No. I have a day job.

I think the appropriate question from here is:

Then what's the next course of action?

-

To stay would be to accept and grind through discomfort.

To stay and attempt to make a difference from the inside? Well, we've seen enough of that, I think.

To leave would be trading levels of security, rights, 'liberties', for others of different shapes and sizes; which, more than likely, down the line will surface its own institutional problems.

-

What are the [feasible] options left, if not, unthought of?

galen  ·  3133 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Space...?

rob05c  ·  3133 days ago  ·  link  ·  

It's been argued civilisations require a frontier to be healthy. Frontiers have a lot of advantages for the stability of the old country. It gives the restless and adventurous a place to go. It gives people dissatisfied with the government or the society a place to go. It gives the government a place to send dissidents and criminals, those unable to integrate with society, allowing them to choose between prison and the frontier.

Overall, It makes the old country less dynamic, but more stable.

It also gives each individual greater choice in their environment, and presumably greater happiness.

OftenBen  ·  3133 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Have Spacesuit, Will Travel.

snoodog  ·  3133 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    But "voting" for a third party is not voting, it's protesting
Meh that's like saying voting for sanders isn't voting. Its a BS argument that the mainstream parties use to discourage you from voting for someone that actually represents you interest.

If your slightly less shitty mainstream candidate is at risk of loosing because you voted for a 3rd party then you are going to force their platform in your direction. Or your are going to allow your 3rd party candidate to get enough of a foothold to get federal election funding for next time. Then they will become an even more real threat in 4 years.

rob05c  ·  3133 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Meh that's like saying voting for sanders isn't voting.

I couldn't disagree more. Sanders is running in the Primary of one of the Two Parties. If he wins their nomination, he becomes one of the Two Parties.

Third parties cannot win in a First Past the Post system. It's not a low chance. It's zero chance. No third party has ever won in a US Presidential election (discounting party system changes, which aren't actual third parties).

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-past-the-post_voting#Tactical_voting

    Its a BS argument that the mainstream parties use to discourage you from voting for someone that actually represents you interest.

The exact opposite. Trump wants you to vote Green, to take votes from Hillary. And Hillary wants you to vote Libertarian, to steal votes from Trump. The Two Parties want you to vote for the third party closest to their opponent. If Bernie ran on a third-party ticket, he would only steal votes from Hillary, and throw the election for Trump. That's how First Past The Post works.

    If your slightly less shitty mainstream candidate is at risk of loosing because you voted for a 3rd party then you are going to force their platform in your direction

That's the sole argument for voting third party instead of mainstream, in FPTP: the nuclear option. If you're willing to, for all practical purposes, vote for Trump, in order to encourage Hillary more to the left, you can Press the Red Button. But the net effect is the same as not voting. So, as far as "pushing to the left" goes, there's no difference whether you vote third party or don't vote.

snoodog  ·  3133 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    That's the sole argument for voting third party instead of mainstream, in FPTP: the nuclear option. If you're willing to, for all practical purposes, vote for Trump, in order to encourage Hillary more to the left, you can Press the Red Button. But the net effect is the same as not voting. So, as far as "pushing to the left" goes, there's no difference whether you vote third party or don't vote.

In a 2 party system every voter has the choice to vote -1, 0 or +1 for a candidate. By voting 3rd party aren't voting "For" trump you are just not canceling out a trump supporters vote. Unless you live in a swing state where the two candidates are 5-8% there is no real reason for you to cancel out someones vote with your own because there is no reason to win by a larger margin. The only time it could be a problem is if two candidates are really closely polling in your state, then you may wish to vote for the "Lesser evil" as opposed to the better candidate.

rob05c  ·  3133 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Unless you live in a swing state

I do.

snoodog  ·  3133 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Well then you have to decide if you hate trump enough to vote for the evil that is Hillary or if you want to nope yourself out of all that two party BS.

rob05c  ·  3133 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Well then you have to decide if you hate trump enough to vote for the evil that is Hillary

    I will not vote for a neoliberal.

Done.

    nope yourself out of all that one party BS.

Fixed that for you.

snoodog  ·  3133 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Ha, thats how I feel too. Trump isn't bad enough IMO that I will vote for Hillary to spite his supports.

This election is really all about Trump. Do you vote for him, against him or neutral. I have seen absolutely no reason to vote "FOR" Hillary, only that a vote for her is one against Trump.