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comment by b_b
b_b  ·  4583 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: "Genital mutilation is no joke"
Maybe its my backwards religious thinking, but circumcision of baby boys doesn't even have a metaphorical comparison with female circumcision. That the share the name circumcision is nothing more than a convenience of language. There is a reason that female circumcision has never spread beyond barbaric parts of the world, while male circumcision started with Jews, and is now common practice, independent of religious affiliation, over much of the world.




thenewgreen  ·  4582 days ago  ·  link  ·  
It's a procedure rooted in ritual and religious tradition and has no health benefits in a modern society. It literally makes no sense. There have also been studies that show that an in-tact penis provides more pleasure to both the man and the woman during sex. I'd say Hitchens makes a pretty good point. Imagine that you know nothing of the tradition and first heard of it just now, what would your reaction be?
mk  ·  4582 days ago  ·  link  ·  
    It's a procedure rooted in ritual and religious tradition and has no health benefits in a modern society.

Actually, it has been widely demonstrated to reduce the spread of HIV, among other STDs.

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/factsheets/circumcision.htm

I think Hitchen's view of it is colored based on his dislike of religion. I agree with b_b, male and female 'circumcision' is not a reasonable comparison. He's being a bit hyperbolic there.

thenewgreen  ·  4581 days ago  ·  link  ·  
Full penis removal will all but eradicate HIV and other STD's, doesn't justify it. I agree that he (and now I) are being hyperbolic to make a point --it's Hitchen's after all, but my thought is that if you never knew that such a thing existed in a culture and then found out about it, you would likely think it was barbaric.
mk  ·  4581 days ago  ·  link  ·  
I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say 'barbaric'.

It's just important to recognize that there are reasons beyond religious ones why the practice continues. One reason is cosmetic. In countries where it is dominant, some parents simply want their child to fit the norm.

To be honest, I found the teeth I had pulled, braces, and other orthodontic procedures I had as a child to be infinitely more scarring than my circumcision. (I say infinitely, because I can't remember my circumcision at all.) And, those painful orthodontic procedures were by and large done for cosmetic reasons. If most people let their teeth go crooked, but one religious group didn't, we would have to call religious childhood orthodontics barbaric too.

thenewgreen  ·  4581 days ago  ·  link  ·  
In that case, let's just tell it like it is.. it's about cosmetic appearance and not preventative medicine. I agree that the use of the word "barbaric" was also hyperbolic. Take my previous comment and use the word "unusual" instead and I'd bet you would agree.
mk  ·  4581 days ago  ·  link  ·  
Yes, I'd agree that it's mostly done for cosmetic reasons. And, I'd argue that since we pull kids teeth and go through other painful orthodontic procedures for cosmetic reasons, it's a bit hypocritical to get up in arms about it like Hitchens did. I doubt he would have ranted about the brutality of pulling kid's teeth.

If people consider an uncircumcised penis to be as socially negative as crooked teeth, then IMO it would be very difficult to justify being ok with one and not the other. And what is more, preventing crooked teeth can easily be a more painful process.

    There have also been studies that show that an in-tact penis provides more pleasure to both the man and the woman during sex.

I'm curious about this. Can't really search at work, but if you can point to one, I'd like to see. I think sex is pretty great. I'd hate to think it could have been even better. And I'm not even Jewish! :)

thenewgreen  ·  4581 days ago  ·  link  ·  
    Circumcised males may also be at risk of premature ejaculation, or alternatively may have to resort to prolonged thrusting during intercourse in order to stimulate sufficiently the residual erogenous penile nerve endings to trigger ejaculation (Bensley & Boyle, 2001). They report that the unnatural dryness of their circumcised penis often makes coitus painful, resulting in chafing and/or skin abrasions (Gemmell & Boyle, 2001). Concomitantly, O'Hara and O'Hara (1999) found that female partners reported significantly greater sexual pleasure from intercourse with genitally intact men as compared with circumcised men. Money and Davison (1983) had previously documented a loss of stretch receptors in the prepuce and frenulum and an associated diminution in sexual response, thereby restricting a circumcised man’s ability to achieve arousal. Consequently, erectile dysfunction may be a complication of male circumcision (Glover, 1929; Ozkara, Asicioglu, Alici, Akkus, & Hattat, 1999; Palmer & Link, 1979; Stief, Thon, Djamilian, Allhoff, & Jonas, 1992; Stinson, 1973).
sourced here
mk  ·  4580 days ago  ·  link  ·  
Well damn, and all this time...
thenewgreen  ·  4580 days ago  ·  link  ·  
me too... me too :-(
b_b  ·  4580 days ago  ·  link  ·  
The fact that there can be a lively debate is evidence that its not at all the same as female circumcision. There is no debate there, in my mind. It is pure wrong, and I say that about very, very few things. My world, usually shades of grey, is purely black and white on that topic.
Roger_Green  ·  4569 days ago  ·  link  ·  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98f3IavuEgQ

This video should be very enlightening to you.

vinyl  ·  4569 days ago  ·  link  ·  
First of all, the video was enlightening to me and in a way that has nothing to do with male/female circumcision but rather in a way that displays how to share information. This video was very well put together. Simple and direct without pulling any punches. I'm glad I watched this.
Jm_Mac  ·  4577 days ago  ·  link  ·  
"My world, usually shades of grey, is purely black and white on that topic."

So what.

b_b  ·  4577 days ago  ·  link  ·  
You're right. On discussion sites people should keep their opinions to themselves. That makes for great conversation.
thenewgreen  ·  4580 days ago  ·  link  ·  
I agree that the two aren't analogous, my only point is that our view of male circumcision is completely ethnocentric. If you removed yourself from it as a cultural norm and saw the practice with a fresh mind, you would likely find it extremely bizarre. (I fully realize I've gone from barbaric to bizarre... this thread has tempered by view)
Jm_Mac  ·  4577 days ago  ·  link  ·  
"My world, usually shades of grey, is purely black and white on that topic."

So what.

Roger_Green  ·  4569 days ago  ·  link  ·  
I hate to burst your bubble, but circumcision outside of religious practice is not "common practice over much of the world". It's only in America that this is inflicted on male children on a wide scale for purposes of "cleanliness". The rest of the world doesn't practice this on any wide scale, thankfully.
AnSionnachRua  ·  4582 days ago  ·  link  ·  
Female "circumcision" is commonly called "female genital mutilation" for this reason. I tend to shy away from political word changes (because it tends to just be a euphemism treadmill), but I do prefer FGM over "circumcision".

Barbaric parts of the world...

A tension exists here. On the one hand, we look at other parts of the world, see what they do, and say that it is simply "their" way; they have their own cultural and social meanings, and we have no right to tell them otherwise. On the other hand, sometimes what they do is just wrong to us. FGM is one such thing. It's wrapped up in their cultural meanings, but for the rest of us it is indeed a barbaric practice.

Anyway, male circumcision is a different kettle of fish, I suppose (since FGM is used to control women's sexual behaviour, and causes sex to not be physically pleasing). As a European, I'm quite glad to be intact.

b_b  ·  4582 days ago  ·  link  ·  
To me there are some things that can't be chalked up to cultural differences, and I don't hesitate to call them barbaric. Most of these things satisfy these criteria: tradition, torture, myth and misogyny. In addition to FGM, so called honor killings satisfy these criteria, as does the rape that is endemic to parts of sub-Saharan Africa. I'm sure there are a lot of others that I could brainstorm.

In the West we have the underground sex trade. That fails the religious criteria, so while it is equally disgusting, I think it is more of a law enforcement issue. No one in the main stream would argue against efforts to shut it down.

AnSionnachRua  ·  4581 days ago  ·  link  ·  
Tradition and myth are barbaric?
b_b  ·  4581 days ago  ·  link  ·  
No. Things that are barbaric are torturous, sometimes misogynistic, things that have their roots in tradition and myth.
Jm_Mac  ·  4577 days ago  ·  link  ·  
Decrying misogyny while ignoring misandry is disgusting.
Roger_Green  ·  4569 days ago  ·  link  ·  
"Decrying misogyny while ignoring misandry is disgusting."

I agree. I wish more Americans would see the hypocrisy in this line of thinking, but they just don't and it's frustrating.

thenewgreen  ·  4569 days ago  ·  link  ·  
As is often the case it takes humor to shed light on how ridiculous something is.