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comment by b_b
b_b  ·  3151 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: What freedom of speech isn't

I hope this isn't a serious reply.

The point is that you're the moderator. You found a loophole earlier, and it will be fixed soon. After that, the only way that posts like the one in question will be seen is if people go looking for them. Is that "letting sewage sit around and propagate"? I'd call it pretty goddam responsive, but I guess some people are always going to piss and moan.





tla  ·  3151 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Fixing filtering is great, yes. But that's only fine and wonderful for those of us who haven't just hopped into a pot of hot water. We didn't just explore the site for the first time to be greeted to someone posting about feminists deserving to be whipped in #feminism, or as per yesterday actually harassing other users in #hubski where it's still 3rd and the oldest post on the front page is almost a month old. That's going to be there for a month unless all y'all start tagging more things #hubski. And that's providing he doesn't have an encore planned.

I don't think the answer lies in hoping that people won't click "more".

I genuinely worry about the people we never get to meet because of that. I worry about it because we have lost wonderful people. And I also worry about the people we gain because of it. I worry about that because we lost great people to those who felt asshattery is allowed here because it literally is as he demonstrates.

People should nope out at the sight of that. We shouldn't expect them to ignore warning signs. After all, the Internet's favorite response to "that's terrible" is "go away you don't belong here". Here it's "just wait it out". He's been here for 3 months. I don't know if I'll last that long.

But yeah, in the mean time it's nice that I will see less of him.

I really am glad for you if this hasn't been your experience of the Internet. I'm not that lucky.

rinx  ·  3151 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I think part of the problem is the filtering model means I lose out too. Most people who aren't following Grendel won't repost his stuff. And he has tons of followers. So if I filter all of the Team Sexist Racist Crazytown, yes I'm in a safe bubble from the hate speech. I'm also going to miss out on quite a lot of content, which hubski doesn't have a ton of right now. Look at the active users in the community tab. Look at grendels followers. Yeesh.

It's the same thing that happened on reddit. I had to avoid the hate subs, obviously. But eventually I had to unsub from the defaults, as the hate subs actively campaign there. Then as they grew to a more majority opinion, the few subs that were supposed to be safe were invaded, and I left the site. That's exactly what the hate subs wanted, and I'm pretty sure what Grendel wants as well.

If grendel continues to recruit, which I believe is his main goal here, yes he is punished by being ignored, but I'm punished by missing out on lots of content, more and more as his popularity grows.

I have a few ideas of things that would help. I think the community should be able to remove tags from a post. If he wasn't allowed to spam feminism with the exact opposite it would help keep him isolated. It would help prevent users from thinking his manipulative behavior represents whichever tag he is currently abusing. I also think the proposed user tagging would help. If I can tag his followers as "possibly crazy" it would help avoid getting drawn in by trolling.

I think if the site as a whole comes up with some smart ways to minimize his damage then he's done hubski users a lot of good. To me, he's a bug, an edge case, and it's just a matter of finding the right policy to deal with his exploitation. But if the answer is "ignore it" I'm concerned what that means for my future here.

b_b  ·  3151 days ago  ·  link  ·  

He is an edge case, but it's been an instructive one. One of our oldest, most followed users quit because he was harassing her. It led to the 'block' feature, but sadly, a day too late. His most recent vitriol led to filtering more from the community page. This motherfucker is a terrorist, making everyone who enjoys this site spend way too much time on him. It's useful though, because you hope that it gets easier the more shit you see. Suggestions to deal with this type of user are always welcome. Your idea about untagging is interesting, but how would it work?

rinx  ·  3151 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I think the problem is the hubski bar analogy falls apart when people are pushing an agenda. He isnt here to participate, he never comments unless its to argue about his hate topics. The problem is, in a bar, everyone would notice that he's in a dark corner of the room, smelling a bit off, with no one talking to him. No one goes up to that guy. On hubski, it just looks like no one is commenting on his posts. Normal users don't see whats wrong with him until he has a toxic day, and even then they might miss it. So how do we show people his stink waves? It seems like there should be some way to let the community know "yes this person is talking, but our silence is not agreement".

On way would be to show how many people have muted someone for a particular topic. I don't want to be hurtful though, or create a negative experience for controversial tags.

Another way would be letting people untag his posts, kicking him out of the room so to speak. Either a hubwheel of "offensive" or "controversial" gives users a warning when viewing content, or deletes the tag entirely. Yes we can filter "spam" or "trolling", but I think it would be better if this was baked into the site itself. If a new users checks out hubski and sees a skull and crossbones next to a post, it sets expectations pretty effectively. It also lets normal users know "hey, this guy is a controversial figure, silence is not agreement".

I feel a little weird proposing suggestions, I know I'm a hubski rookie. But I don't want to be negative and just whine about things I don't like without offering suggestions. So I'm very open to criticism or disagreement on this one.

user-inactivated  ·  3151 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    a hubwheel of "offensive" or "controversial"

My first idea as I read this thread further was the red hubwheel, but it came to me soon after that it can, too, be abused. Perhaps not as heavily, since I haven't noticed trolling in such quantities on Hubski, but still, it's the opportunity I'm uncomfortable with. Test run, perhaps, with saving the data if it proceeds to a feature state?

ButterflyEffect  ·  3151 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Throwin' ideas at the wall:

If I click to remove a tag it will stay but if someone else does it independently then it will be removed. Add/remove people as you see fit.

If I follow a tag give me the ability to correct mislabeled posts for that tag i.e. if something is posted under #feminism and #mensrights and I follow feminism then give me the ability to change that tag only, since I follow it.

Make me give up a badge to remove a tag / all tags on a post regardless of anything else.

Other topic: I'm still for even harsher functioning of the block function and think it should completely remove that person from my Hubski experience by additionally making it so I flat out don't see their comments on other peoples posts or anywhere else.

o11c  ·  3151 days ago  ·  link  ·  

This is why I so strongly believe we need moderation/curation.

But let's consider the problem from a different perspective: what if tags did not exist?

If tags did not exist, we would only be able to find new content by following people. This is how real life has worked for millions of years, so our ingrained social rules will probably.

Now, it's obviously implausible to directly follow everyone who might post content on a subject you're interested in, or even follow everyone who is close enough to share it. Which is where a degree of implicit trust comes in. Some magic formula (left as an exercise for the reader) takes into account indirect follow chains and (to a lesser degree) simple share/upvote chains.

New users can still enter this ecosystem. As soon as someone upvotes one of their comments, they gain a little implicit trust so other people can see their post.

Now the only question is: where do tags fit in? I'm sure everyone claims that they are useful, but how?

Unlike subreddits, tags are not the primary way I discover content (for me at least). And most of the tags I do see in my feed I added because I saw people I follow posting in them.

I think that tags are only useful as a way to filter posts that I'm already seeing for the sake of seeing a longer history.

---

Yes, I am aware that this will lead to a bit of a walled garden effect. But, remember that it only removes the visibility of posts, not comments (unless you block them of course).

ButterflyEffect  ·  3151 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I'm going to be honest here (and please, this isn't anything personal against you) but I have no interest in a discussion about tags right now so I'm going to leave you with a history of tags and all that good stuff to provide some background information and other discussion. Also, if you look at previous discussions you might notice a bit of a difference in attitude and vibe going back compared to now.

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

Tags

crafty  ·  3151 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I would just like to point out that "following" grendel does not mean "agreeing" with grendel. Sometimes I like to read things I disagree with; is that some sort of crime or moral shortcoming in your book? I like to read contrarian points of view, even if it means rejecting 85% of it as sexist, racist or otherwise worthless smut. It is true though, his spat with fanficguy is immature, and he should probably feel embarrassed by it; I'm not sure why you guys keep taking his bait there.

rinx  ·  3151 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Where do you get crime from? Little hyperbolic don't you think?

Grendel isn't here to participate in the community. He's here to campaign. It's why he blocks everyone who disagrees with him. His hate-riddled anti-women posts aren't interesting or original, and I do think less of anyone who follows him, yourself included.

As for why he's worth discussing, because more will come. And if enough angry, sad people like him take over the site, it will probably stop being one I'm a part of. So he is an interesting case study, and hopefully helps hubski harden itself against future legions of idiots.

crafty  ·  3151 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Yes, it was a little hyperbolic, but again, my point is that just because I follow him, doesn't mean I agree with everything he posts or says, and I don't think it's morally wrong to expose oneself to conflicting or even hateful ideas; those are the kind of ideas that make me angry and impassioned. If we want to extend the "mold" metaphor here, I like to think of myself someone who studies all the different kinds of mold, who can tell the different species apart, and perhaps even identify the difference between mold and just really ugly wallpaper.

Back in high school, I used to spend a lot of time seeking out Christians on the internet with hateful opinions against gay people (I'm gay, btw), trying to understand where they were coming from, sometimes arguing against them. It was often futile, but occasionally I would find people who could still hold a respectful discussion, and I'd like to think that I (and the people I engaged with) grew from those experiences.

In college, I would often listen to this preacher who would come on campus to preach "Christianity," but really it was mostly sexism, racism, bigotry, and anti-intellectualism; one of my favorite pastimes was standing there between classes and listening to him, sometimes arguing with his supporters. I liked to hear the arguments, seeing which ones were strong, which ones were weak, sometimes laughing at the angry ones who would just shout an obscenity in response. It wasn't for everyone, my partner hated even being around him, which is just different strokes for different folks. Sure, on one hand he was getting the audience and attention that he craved, and even the negativity he received probably only served to reinforce some deep-seated persecution complex, but I think in the long run, he only hurt his cause.

If you want to tar me for following him, or not blocking him, or for being a white cis male, by all means, go right ahead, I'll be the last person to stop you. For the record, I'm in favor of making it more public when someone has a bunch of people blocked or muted, so we can see the people who carefully curate echo chambers in their posts. This idea has been discussed and the admins seem to have good reasons for not implementing it, so perhaps there are different solutions.

rinx  ·  3150 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    or for being a white cis male
C'mon dude. Not cool. I have no problem with white guys, why is that information even relevant? This is the same baiting as the crime comment. Stop it.

You say you follow him to expand awareness, or keep enemies close kinda thing. I get that. I lurked MRA back when I used reddit. This is different. He trolls a tag, posting things that are exactly opposite of that tag on purpose to rile and offend. Then you share it. You've not only given him the soapbox he wants, but you've actually propagated it around to people who follow you. And worst of all, I see no actual shares of any feminism related content. You say you follow a contrarian viewpoint, but all the evidence points to exactly the opposite.

You were the 3rd person I filtered on hubski. I took you off that list recently because it seemed like you'd chilled out, but after this discussion I'm going to take a break for a bit. I'm not going to mute you because I don't want to force you out of my posts, but please don't make me reconsider that. I'll check back in a while and maybe in the future we can get along better. In the meantime, why not try following users like tla instead of toxic jerks? From your debate style and post history, I think there's a lot more you could learn there.

crafty  ·  3150 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    C'mon dude. Not cool. I have no problem with white guys, why is that information even relevant? This is the same baiting as the crime comment. Stop it.

Right, but c'mon, it's your right to block or filter whoever you want for whatever reason you want. I'm not saying you in particular have a problem with white cis males, but if someone did, they're within their rights to act on it. That is the framework this site gives you. You don't have to listen to someone you don't like if it bothers you that much.

    And worst of all, I see no actual shares of any feminism related content. You say you follow a contrarian viewpoint, but all the evidence points to exactly the opposite.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Am I supposed to share posts I find offensive? I may read it, I may comment on it, but if I don't think it's worthwhile to propagate it, I won't share it to those who follow me. The only soapbox he has is the one he makes for himself. I have my own soapbox and it is mine, not his or yours. If you don't like the stuff grendel shares, filter him. If you don't like what I share, filter me. If you don't like what either of us share, then filter us both! Is this rocket science, or am I just taking crazy pills!? If you want to go through and filter everyone who follows grendel, then be my guest. Hell, I'd recommend filtering everyone who follows someone who follows grendel, just to be safe since you sound particularly thin skinned. Can't be too safe these days, but that's up to you, obviously.

    You were the 3rd person I filtered on hubski. I took you off that list recently because it seemed like you'd chilled out, but after this discussion I'm going to take a break for a bit. I'm not going to mute you because I don't want to force you out of my posts, but please don't make me reconsider that. I'll check back in a while and maybe in the future we can get along better. In the meantime, why not try following users like tla instead of toxic jerks? From your debate style and post history, I think there's a lot more you could learn there.

Go right ahead and filter me, don't let my contributions to this site annoy you if that's the way you feel. If you want to mute me because you don't like what I have to say or how I say it, I won't feel offended, and you shouldn't feel bad. I'm honest about my opinions and I know there is always something I can learn from other people; I never allow myself to make rude insults, but apparently that rubs some people the wrong way. I try not to judge other people and tell them what they can learn, I'd rather focus on what I can learn, but that's just me. The three tla posts I can see in her or his profile (petski fluff, shitstirring, and Hillary propaganda from WSJ) do not inspire me to follow that person yet, though.

ArtemusBlank  ·  3151 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Out of curiosity, I looked at who follows Grendel and what I realized is that most of the people that follow him at the moment are people who came during either the whole fat people hate banning episode or the Ellen Pao firing and a good number of those people don't really posted on Hubski anymore. They posted a couple of things their first day or two and then didn't post again. It's seems like it's basically Grendel and himself right now as he doesn't really have people who actually support him.

Also for the record, I have disagreed with Grendel many times but he has yet to block me as he replied to me yesterday.

tla  ·  3151 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Most of them are inactive, sure. But it's the ones who are active and thank him... they fucking thank him. Then complain they might get tarred by following him.

tla  ·  3151 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    I would just like to point out that "following" grendel does not mean "agreeing" with grendel.

Have you convinced grendel of this yet?

    even if it means rejecting 85% of it as sexist, racist or otherwise worthless smut

I'm pretty sure he doesn't believe you're doing that since you follow him. And since as I understand it, following outranks filtering, I get to look for him in follow lists before I decide to follow anyone.

    he should probably feel embarrassed by it

He isn't and won't be. He'll go even further past the line next time. He continually escalates his abhorrent behavior.

    I'm not sure why you guys keep taking his bait there.

Because he's making me reluctant to tell people about hubski.

crafty  ·  3151 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Have you convinced grendel of this yet?

Why do I need to convince grendel of anything? Hubski is not like reddit, we are all individuals here, not part of some imagined grendel-hivemind. It's something I struggled with when transitioning from reddit as well; if you read or post in a particular subreddit, you're engaging with this amorphous blob of pseudonymous users in a giant peanut gallery, which makes it hard to really pick out and get to know individuals; reddit-culture is like chan-culture, it thrives on that dissociative anonymity. Sure, you can treat people like subreddits, but you're really doing the hubski model a big disservice if you do.

    I'm pretty sure he doesn't believe you're doing that since you follow him. And since as I understand it, following outranks filtering, I get to look for him in follow lists before I decide to follow anyone.

You're free to follow, unfollow, block, filter, whatever, for any reason you want. Curate your feed; don't be lazy then complain about about the community because of your own laziness. I'm pretty sure if you have someone blocked, even if someone you follow shares their post, it will not appear in your feed. I know I have particular tags blocked, and even if the people I follow post and share content with that tag, it does not appear for me.

    He isn't and won't be. He'll go even further past the line next time. He continually escalates his abhorrent behavior.

So? He acts a fool with idle shitstirring and drama-starting; if he does it repeatedly and it pollutes my feed enough, I'll unfollow or filter him, like you should have done a long time ago. If you do already have him blocked/filtered, then I'm inclined to say it's a bug that you're still seeing his content. Trolling posts like that thrive on a big breathless reaction like this.

    Because he's making me reluctant to tell people about hubski.

QQ. There's a person on the internet who's an asshole! I don't recommend the internet to friends.

tla  ·  3149 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Why do I need to convince grendel of anything?

So he'll fuck off and stop shitting the place up. He isn't going away because he thinks his echo chamber of followers love him. He loves the echo chamber he's building. He thinks he's accepted because people in his echo chamber of followers and people who he hasn't muted tell him he is. Literally. And then they go outside his echo chamber all inspired by him to protest feminism and black lives matter and explain how white man is the most oppressed.

Containing a toxic spill isn't possible if people walk through it.

This is a social problem with a social solution. But we are attempting to rely on technology instead, and it's backfiring.

    like you should have done a long time ago

We can filter? Wow why didn't anyone say so... oh, wait, they did. I did filter him. I've said so before. Repeatedly.

He's been filtered since the day I made a hubski account. But I still can't escape his shit.

He keeps showing up ANYWAY.

("Hmm, I don't remember that thread" click "FFFFUUUUUUUUU").

He keeps showing up when I look at people's user pages and look at their recent comments and end up on his threads; OP doesn't get listed in "crafty · link · parent · +! · post: What freedom of speech isn't"

He keeps showing up on community when people telling him off gets upvoted. OP also doesn't show up in "kleinbl00 · link · parent · +! · post: It's a White Man's Internet"

He keeps getting in my way because all y'all keep giving him the attention he's trolling for.

The latest one I didn't even have to click on the thread, I just went to the community page. The title was enough. And I also already knew what it was about because I saw the triggering conversation in my chatter.

Don't. Blame. ME.

Why should I have to not click on links on hubski because it might be a stealth blocked person? It's kinda defeating the point, yo.

I keep mentioning all this. I don't blame the hubski team for not keeping up, there are a lot of issues to deal with. I mentioned it all back a month ago and was told to just wait it out. I've mentioned it since. I mentioned it the other day. I get told it can't be fixed if I don't mention it. Sure when I do mention it I get thanked and that's nice. But I also get shit piled on me in the most amazingly condescending way, and told I'm fucking lazy, or told to be quiet and wait it out. Doge forbid I get angry about it. No wonder others are nervous about pointing stuff out.

Get off my back.

    I don't recommend the internet to friends

Nice strawman.

I can't recommend hubski as a chimpire-free alternative to reddit when it is heading for the exact same problem. It only takes one Cat Piss Man to ruin a place this small, and ours is malicious to boot. It's literally killing my experience of hubski, why would I invite others to experience the same?

And you. You're part of that experience. Congrats.

rinx  ·  3149 days ago  ·  link  ·  

The user you're responding to is completely full of it. He spreads the anti-feminism stuff around and his comment history is full of pro-troll posts. I know you're frustrated that these people exist and are so active here, but I think the Hubski team is working on it. Keep in mind you have double his followers, the Hubski community is overwhelmingly more interesting in what you have to say then people like him.

I don't think there is much point talking to someone who is so completely nutty. He's not going to cave, or suddenly learn how to handle an intelligent conversation. I'm not going to tell you not to get mad, or not to hold users to a higher standard. I'm just posting so you know you aren't alone, and that users like him won't matter much in the long run. Hang in there lady.

crafty  ·  3149 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I'll keep it short and sweet because, frankly, I don't think this:

    y'all keep giving him the attention he's trolling for.

is correct. It's not me that is giving him all this attention, I don't really care about the guy. He posted a couple interesting articles, I commented on/shared a small fraction of them; it is other people, people like you, this entire recent round of reddit diaspora, that is starting and perpetuating the issue on both sides; hubski was a much nicer place before all of you people showed up. I don't think I've ever said anything racist or sexist, and if I have, I would make a genuine apology for it, but you people are an unrelenting mob, who refuse to stop complaining about one person. At any rate, good luck on your personal crusade, and with all due respect, don't hesitate to filter me, I wouldn't want to negatively impact your delicate sensibilities. By the way, it is my personal opinion that dem dank maymays deserve to stay on reddit, but hey, to each her own, right?