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comment by _refugee_
_refugee_  ·  1799 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Ignorance is a mold that looks like a fire.

Metaphorically, "dry wit" is a form of sarcasm. Being "salty" is also accepted to mean "being bitter" or "full of attitude." I believe that sarcasm can be taken as an example of either trait.

When you have attitude, metaphorically it could be "drying" to ignorance-aka-mold because when poor or invalid arguments are offered forth in comment threads, but then countered by educated, vehement, I-am-not-going-to-take-your-shit-because-no-you-don't-deserve-the-benefit-of-the-doubt responses, I think those responses will often be recognized by the community as apt, just, and even deserved. As a result they will be somehow illustrated as superior to the moldy comment, whether in upspokes, gold/gilding/whatever, upvotes, etc. And when it becomes clear to a user that the community is overwhelmingly against him, which is usually best shown by solidarity for the other option/viewpoint, he suddenly tends to shut up. And even if he doesn't, the demonstration of where the general community's opinion lies allows other, future readers to realize that just because the comment's there doesn't mean anyone agrees with it. in that way, I would say that salt/attitude prevent the growth of mold/ignorance.

Someone who I respect once told me that I "had never been too nice." I guess I have an acerbic reputation. But the truth is that this is not true. The truth is that in the past, I have been far too nice to people and given them far too many chances, far too much benefit of the doubt, and doing so - repeatedly, because I am an optimist - over time has caused me harm.

These, as well as the word "nice" and the heavy pressure society exerts on people to be "nice," are ways that people manipulate others, making people feel bad because they are not going along with the other person.

I think some people bank on the "well you should have been nice nyah nyah" argument to derail from the actual argument.

It does not behoove me to be nice when someone is, in my opinion, blatantly wrong. When someone in your proximity, someone you allow around you, expresses something that opposes your own beliefs, if you do not speak up, that person will think not only that it's okay to say those things but that you either don't mind or tacitly agree with them. The people around you who associate you two will believe this too if you do not speak up. If I have a friend who is a terrible sexist but we don't talk about it because "it's an emotional topic" and we'd rather not, well, guess what? Any time anyone sees me out with my friend and hears him say disgusting things is going to think the same. That is why I do not advocate for staying friends with someone if I disagree with them on social issues that I feel are a matter of basic human rights. It's okay if we disagree about vidjagames or some shit but not essential aspects of how people should be treated.

Attitude, confidence, the willingness and self-righteousness that it takes to speak up when you think you see something truly wrong being said - no they are not always flattering traits. Yeah you can look like an ass. You can be wrong sometimes or misconstrue. I don't care about that. I stand up in conversations like the one earlier because it is important to me to do so. It is important to me to say, "I disagree with this" because if I do not, or if someone does not, it's easy for the whole website to look racist. Or whatever. C'mon guys like this literal thing happened in practice: people kept complaining about racist users and how the site seemed racist. I mean I'm not falling for bait and once a user's shown his true colors I filter him and move on, but I will stand up in fresh conversations with fresh users at least once before I tune them out.

It is important to me to speak up over/in lieu of having happy happy peaceful interactions all the time. I stand up because it's not 8bit's job to deal with all of this shit, either. I stand up because I am trying to put my money where my mouth is and defend what I believe and support people like 8bit who have to deal with assholes constantly forcing him to have the same conversation about racism over and over and over again.

Sure i'm probably idealist and a white knight or some shit. I stand up because I won't shut up and put up.

But I am not tired enough that I will not stand up and say something.

I will never choose being polite over making my point when I am passionately convinced that I am right and the opinion being expressed against me is not only wrong but reprehensible. I don't know what the value is in being polite if it dilutes the point or allows others to avoid it.

Silence is so easy to mistake for agreement, or at least tolerance.





ThatFanficGuy  ·  1799 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I feel like I pressed a button.

    I as a woman am told I should be polite instead of expressing myself

From my experience, it isn't because you're a woman - it's because you're perceived to suppose to be a nice gal, for one reason or another. I went through that, too: most people around me pressured me to be a nice guy because I hurt their feelings otherwise. I don't remember my childhood, but I guess I always liked being direct and honest, and people around me didn't dig it. I can only assume that it's mostly the same everywhere, though I can't deny that gender could play quite a bit into others' expectations of you.

Overall, I agree with you. "What could be expelled by the truth, should be".

Still, I have an issue, and I think you'll understand where I'm coming from: using "attitude" to describe a specific kind of attitude - boldness - and "salty" to describe acerbic expression of oneself.

The first one, in particular, drives me nuts: my narcissistic mother always used to push me to "behave" by asking angerly "Why are you acting this way?"; when I asked back "What way?", she always took a second or two before replying "...this way!", having absolute anxiety about expressing herself openly. To name it "attitude" is to give it a false name - a lazy name, a mental substitute for what is really meant, which goes against speaking one's mind.

As for "salty", well, I suppose we may be seeing it differently. I've grown used to seeing "salty" meaning "acting as a sore loser" (after one's ego been damaged in some way): backtalk, blaming everything but oneself for the results etc. You've already used the exact word to describe what you meant perfectly: "acerbic". "Acrid" is fine, too, and so is "acidic" (I have no idea why isn't it used more often). My point is - name things for what they are.

_refugee_  ·  1799 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I've updated a little but don't feel like I swung my leg too far when hit by the hammer. ;)

My mom can't communicate either. Maybe it's a mom thing.

Salty, acerbic - I was stretching the metaphor.

I am sure there is a difference between boldly expressing one's opinion and doing so acerbic-ly. I would like to think that sometimes I manage to stay in the first.

I agree it is preferable even when disagreeing not to be mean, not to lose some of the strength of your point by slinging mud and throwing fits. But I don't think it's necessary to outright "be nice."

ThatFanficGuy  ·  1799 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    but don't feel like I swung my leg too far when hit by the hammer. ;)

Could you elaborate on that? It's the first time I see such a sentence.

    My mom can't communicate either.

It's more than lack of communication, you see. Have you ever heard of what's it like to live with a narcissist?

    Salty, acerbic - I was stretching the metaphor.

I understand now. Does it mean that you agree with me on the current matter of names and words?

    But I don't think it's necessary to outright "be nice."

A skilled orator can use being nice - or, rather, non-confrontational - to the best of their advantage. People shield up when they hear something that sounds like an assault on their integrity; as such, appearing nice - that is, not disturbing others' worldview, but rather shifting it inch by inch through careful questions and statements - might be a weapon more powerful than an witty rant, in some situations.

Not that you have to be nice to people at all times if your point is to please them or don't let them frown from you expressing yourself. I mean to say that it's not all bad.