A lot of people here are describing the headrush of adulation: how infatuation feels, how it is to be smitten with someone, how the honeymoon-easy-parts of the relationship are, especially (to me it seems) in the beginning days when the rush is still fresh. Indeed, studies show that happiness peaks for a short time after a relationship, but then normalizes. Therefore I must admit I am suspect of these definitions of love - don't we hold love to be a lasting, permanent force in life? Isn't that one of its hallmarks, its ability to remain after many fights and years? Indeed, don't many people tell us we cannot even truly know we are in love until we have been with a person for x weeks, x months, even x years? I have a friend who has been living with her boyfriend for the past year. They dated for a few before that. This year, they moved in together, finally, due to careful budgeting. The boyfriend bought himself a new car around the same time. Two weeks later, he was laid off. My friend has been supporting him through unemployment until he finally found a job - but one which pays less than both his former gig and unemployment. You can imagine the stress their little household has encountered as it has gone from "carefully stepping forward on the 'next step' while moving in a reasonable financial matter" to "my friend paying for basically the entirety of the household as her partner needs to recoup and get back on his feet." (They have an agreement and he will begin putting money back towards rent soon.) Thing is, that friend? She tells me, she doesn't know if she's in love with him. She wants to know, what love is. She's very upfront with her partner about this; they've talked about love, and how he's certain he loves her, but she has difficulty with the idea for some reason. I think the concept is more nebulous than she is comfortable, that of love. You can't define it or draw lines and say "this is where love starts." Recently I told her that I didn't really care if she didn't think she was in love with her partner. By dint of her actions, I felt and feel that what they have has to be love. My logic is that if she is willing to do as much as she does for him and it's not love, then the rest of her friends should be able to reap similar benefits, no? Basically, a person would not be willing to do everything she does for her partner if they were not in love. Moreover, I think that's what matters more. Not whether you say you are in love but how you act and how you treat your partner.
[DISCLAIMER: The following assumes a family that, while not perfect, does not contain anyone so poisonously narcissistic or otherwise unhealthy/unable to cope/negative, as to prevent these circumstances. YES, people's families suck, and indeed, mine has a lot of flaws. But one thing we generally know how to do is live with/around each other. Families exist where this is not possible. This is my personal experience.] When I think of love, I think most of family. I think of how I tolerate, weather, and understand my family members at their worst and do not leave and often do not even blame them, wholly, for their outbursts. I know them well enough to say "she's just having a bad day," or "he's stressed about [x]" and either not take it personally or strive not to. I give them the benefit of the doubt. I do not consider abandoning them because there is no choice to do so. I worry about them. When I fight with them it is never a matter of winning or losing because there is no point to that. I can't win against my family, or lose, really. I can try to make them understand, and try to hear them, and that's about it. I pick up after them when I have the time, and I don't chalk it up invisibly and wait for my generosity to be paid back. It's simply what I do, because I know they appreciate it, because I know they need help from time to time, because I'm certain that in the long run they will get me back, if that were to matter. I listen when they talk about things I don't care about. I do what they ask because I know it matters to them, not to me. I think if we are talking about LOVE, and not the heady rush of the first months or even year or two of a successful sexual relationship, many of these elements should be there. I think it probably takes years to develop some of these tendencies but I think considering love and long-term relationships from the perspective of "family" helps - because when you marry or partner with someone for an extended period of time, you choose to make them your family, and you need to treat them like {relatively successful} family members treat each other. I have never had that. However, I grow increasingly more conscious of how that kind of mindset is necessary for a successful LTR. When they say, "you must be a team," it really means "pick up the slack when you need to without being asked." It means "transcend tit for tat." Of course this assumes they treat you the same way too, and that it's a healthy relationship, and all is well. I also think it takes years to get to that point. But to me, that's love or the love I would like to get to: knowing there is someone who always has your back at the end of the line, someone who you can always count on so far as they are able. Blah blah blah, sentiment. :)
I think I'm still going to go with "if you don't know if you are in love then you aren't in love." What troubles me most is it sounds like there is the potential for some real deep seeded resentment due to the financial situation, paying for him, etc. The resentment can be on both sides: she may resent him or end up resenting him for not pulling his weight, being a burden, not working hard enough to find a new job, etc. He may resent her for doing what she is doing and feel like he is not worthy, he is being cared for, he is lesser for needing assistance during this time, etc. It's complicated but I've seen many modern men still get their dick tied in a knot when the girl makes more money than him or if he does not have the ability to pay and do everything he wants. I dated a guy for a while who never wanted to be seen taking money from me and never wanted to be seen not paying the bill. As we were both equally broke and frugal, I often gave him whatever money I was planning on spending before we went out so that he would be seen getting us drinks, paying for dinner, and I would never be seen with my wallet out. Since I'm receiving this information from you rather than from her, I won't make too many assumptions regarding this. It does sound like the potential resentments are definitely there and something that I would be worried about. Obviously, being worried about potential resentments isn't a very good sign of a healthy relationship. :) I completely agree with you about the honeymoon vs long-lasting love. So here's my take on long lasting love, which has some similarities to yours. Family is a good place to start as it has this level of inescapability. But you don't choose your family and you can't leave them. In modern America, people leave each other all the time - even long lasting marriages. So I think one thing that love is loving, knowing, and wanting to love this other person forever, having no doubts about this fact, and no thoughts that it could be any other way. Just like you can't leave your family, love kills all doubts that you could leave the other person or live without this other person. After a while, you fall out of lusty, sexually charged, hand holding, kissing over dinner mode. This love is not as easy to describe (or nearly as fun) and I characterize it as companionship, undying support, teamwork, and togetherness. It shifts from this thing where every little thing is exciting to where your relationship is just always there. This is also where your individual life starts to come back. You both have your personal goals, dreams, hopes, inspirations, jobs, hardships and, while separate, your relationship is like the motivation and glue and driving force behind what you do. You want to be better and you are better because you are have this other person. Honestly, I think falling is love does great things for your career and personal dreams. I see this with my parents a lot. My dad has his businesses and his work and his boat. My mom, since she's retired now, has her things like yoga, church, friends, tutoring, and substitute teaching. They both do all these things separate and my mom couldn't give two fucks about the faulty o-rings on the water intake of the boat and my dad couldn't give two fucks about yoga. But they consult each other on everything, they give and receive advice, they are supportive and push each other to think bigger, do better, overcome challenges, etc. The simple knowledge that you are not going through life alone and you have someone right there with you to accomplish everything makes life easier and better. They take care of each other always and would do just about anything to help one another - sometimes to a fault. My dad can be extremely annoying in his willingness to help and offer everlasting support - I've heard my mom say, "you know, sometimes you just want to rant and have someone listen, not have someone attempt to solve your every problem." I told her that's what she gets for marrying an engineer. In the end, we both realize that it comes from a good place. Similarly, if my dad asked my mother to help him on the boat, she would be to the boat immediately and hold the o-ring for as long as he needed. (I have no idea what you do when you fix an o-ring, obviously). The other remarkable thing is that they can get annoyed with each other and poke fun at each others idiosyncrasies and be (in my opinion) incredibly harsh with one another at times. However, it never penetrates their love? I don't quite know how to say this. It never is deep? It's part of them and their relationship. And they are comfortable enough, trusting enough, and confident enough in their relationship that all the little things have no bearing on their relationship. When you can be openly annoyed with someone for something and still go to sleep happy with each other at the end of the day, then that is love. I doubt they even talk about it. Because it's just one of those things that is there and they still are completely sure in themselves and each other and their relationship. It's not even a thing. I don't know. This paragraph is a mess. Also, since were going to roll with the half-thoughts and messiness, another example of this is thing I remember seeing more as a kid and never seeing in any other relationship. My parents had a running joke about "my dad's girlfriend" and "my mom's boyfriend." For example, we'd be watching a movie, the house phone would ring, no one was there, my dad or I would ask, "who was it?" and my mom would joke, "must have been your girlfriend." (Obviously, it was most likely a robot call who failed at doing it's only job.) Similarly, my dad would come upstairs and see the Atlanta Braves on TV and go, "oh you're just watching your boyfriend (Chipper Jones) again." Again, these interactions are not "a thing." As in, there is literally nothing to them. Most relationships I know, this situation would result in hard feelings, insecurities, slow building of resentment, etc. People say "don't go to sleep upset" because the unresolved issues will pop up later. The thing is, with my parents at least, it's not really unresolved. It's more similar to "agree to disagree" or simple acceptance or something. I'm really sure what it is. It's not a sign of lack of trust and no one, including me, ever thought that my dad had a girlfriend or that my mom was even the slightest bit worried about him having a girlfriend. It's just shows their utter and complete trust and how they are on the same page and have this understanding of one another that is very rare. My boyfriend and I are getting there. We can have little arguments and disagreements and whatever and go to sleep knowing that we are going to wake up together still and happy still. Considering we are both incredibly stubborn and hard-headed, this is impressive, to say the least. It's like a different, bigger form of trust. Once you know that you are in this thing together, nothing can affect that. And once you know that the other person is going to be there forever, the insecurities and reasons for not going to bed upset sort of fall away. I guess issues are only issues if they have the potential to create or amplify insecurities and affect your relationship. Once you get to a point where you aren't insecure, the issues have to be much, much bigger. I think the biggest thing about love is the trust - but it's a much different trust that the trust we typically hear about with love. It's not "trusting" someone to go out to a bar filled with sexy people and not fuck them. It's this huge level of trust where you absolutely, undoubtedly know that this person is going to be by your side and help you conquer whatever comes your way. It's knowing that you are together forever and on the same page and with each other through everything. It's knowing that nothing - not even Chipper Jones in his hey day - could ever touch your relationship and the love and respect and companionship and everything that you have with this person. I think that's that big ass, long lasting love. I also know that thenewgreen has this with his wife, although I don't them enough to come up with examples or attempt put their relationship into words. Maybe when he's not running around being thenewgreen he can comment.Thing is, that friend? She tells me, she doesn't know if she's in love with him. She wants to know, what love is.
Trust me, when it comes to potential issues in her relationship with her man, concerns and opinions have been (tactfully) aired from my side, and she has (to her credit) considered them. Your concerns may very well not be far from mine. It took me several years to say this to my friend, but I don't really like her partner. However, I care more about being there to listen to her and offer a sounding board than about whether I like his personality - so I keep an open mind and listen, and pitch in my advice when she wants it, and then I remind her of my own flaws and biases. I'll be honest in that my parents don't have the kind of relationship I would want if I got married. Although I did pull from my own family life for references and examples regarding love, I think you manage to present a fuller picture of "long term/permanent love" and some of its nuances than I get to appreciate/look in on at home. My mom is both co-dependent and selfish, and once or twice has told my brother that my father "doesn't like confident women." I don't think my parents are as good of a team as they could be because of the dichotomy of their relationship - my mom relies on/expects that my dad will take care of most things for her. However, that's the set-up that they probably knew they were getting into when they got married. It just may have gotten more pronounced and exaggerated as time passed. My mom once asked me if, should the need arise, I could take my dad to the hospital in the middle of the night so that she wouldn't have to - because she wanted to be able to get a good night's rest. To me, if my life partner was in the hospital with an emergency, not only would I want to be there with them - both as support and for information - but also, a good night's sleep would be impossible. They don't sleep in the same bed most of the time. Anyway so this isn't really meant to be about my parents. They've absolutely managed to stay together for like, 25 years, so that's something. I do think that sometimes people change as they get older in ways you couldn't have expected or predicted and sometimes it can worsen or weaken the relationship and that's sad. For instance my dad has turned into a really cranky, short-tempered old man. He wasn't when they married or even 10 years ago, but now he is. But they're still together. They put up with each other's vagaries for sure. They provide each other company and I know my mother especially really likes/needs that. And dad in his own way looks out for mom. Sometimes he takes us kids aside and reminds us to be nicer to her, even as he acknowledges how she can be annoying and aggravating. Who's going to have an ideal relationship anyway 20 years down the road? But I do hope, whatever I have, it doesn't go down quite the same path that they did. I enjoy hearing your thoughts, insom. Keep 'em rambling. :) You have a lot more confidence in your s/o than I do in mine. I really think it's helpful to me so see your successful, happy relationship, at least from the back seat. :)
Last night I stopped running around, being thenewgreen and took the time to comment in this thread. Hopefully it makes sense.