This is mostly about toys, but I like the parenting and gender questions it raises a lot. kleinbl00, thenewgreen, (maybe mk? --wish I could tag fuffle...) anyone else who has young children of either sex -- what sort of toys do they play with? Are these things you think about consciously when buying them new things or choosing which books they're exposed to?
For those of you with daughters, was there a deliberate choice to maybe give them access to things like legos or building blocks that are traditionally "male" but which in actuality shouldn't be attached to either gender? For those of you with sons, what's the corollary? There's a much larger stigma for male children who play with dolls etc. than for girls who play with toy soldiers or a football or something.
I like to think that if I ever have a daughter, I will give her the option of playing with toys associated with both genders -- but in thinking about that I've exposed my own bias ... I'm not sure I would make the same deliberate steps to expose a son to traditionally-female toys. I have a lot to think about.
She doesn't really raise a lot of gender questions, though - the sleight of hand is in quotes such as this one: My daughter is still pooping her drawers. Gender roles are of much lower importance than at TNG's house, for example. That said, I'm much more concerned about shielding my daughter against the media onslaught than the toys she plays with. It's funny - my sister's kid is eight months older than mine. She watches a lot of TV. Ariel is the best thing in the world for her - Disney princesses really matter. By contrast, my daughter has seen three things on TV in her entire short life: Super Bowl XLVII, Super Bowl XLVIII and 30 minutes of Winged Migration when she was fighting a 105 degree fever from teething. She doesn't know from Disney princesses. Her favorite toy in all the world is an Afrin bottle, followed by blocks, followed by a box of Hot Wheels cars. As a screenwriter that has friends who write children's programming, I'm acutely aware of how little psychological training the average children's television writer has and how inexpert they are at propagating positive gender roles. Keeping her aware that the Idiot Box is looking to sell her something is Priority One. Helping her understand the stories she hears aren't reality is Priority Two. After that, if she wants a barbie doll she'll get one. I'll be honest. I'd be totally into building her a dollhouse. That sounds like fun. But I'd be just as into building her a train set. She does dig on the Hotwheels.It’s tough, because as a creative person myself, I’d love to see much more open-ended creative play, but that’s not financially sound for a large toy company. When the choice is My Little Pony or an open-ended toy, which one are they going to choose? They’re going to choose My Little Pony. If you want to be involved with more open-ended creative play, you’re going to have to look in the specialty toy market, with educational toys or small mom-and-pop companies or maybe European companies. They don’t have the big numbers, so they don’t have anything to prove.
Good on you with the TV avoidance ... that's crucial, more crucial than ever. It's all too easy to fall prey as well. Heh. Okay. Thanks for the answer -- maybe I'll ask a follow-up in a year or two. I remain very interested in optimal parenting strategies.Her favorite toy in all the world is an Afrin bottle, followed by blocks, followed by a box of Hot Wheels cars.
My daughter is 26 months. We do make a conscious effort to limit those toys explicitly 'made for girls', but we won't prevent her from playing with something that she likes. We have LEGOS, and the ones that I have purchased for her have been gender neutral. She has a train set and a kitchen, and she probably spends equal time playing with each. That said, anyone that thinks that gender is purely a cultural construct likely hasn't had kids. Watching my daughter, her cousins, and my friend's kids grow from birth, it's pretty obvious that they each start with their own seed of preferential interests, and there are some generalities, and yet plenty of exceptions. Speaking personally, I am not much of a jock, and no degree of training or exposure would have made me interested in playing sports. I am a straight guy that can crochet but cannot juggle a soccer ball. At about 14 months old, my daughter became fascinated with shoes. One of her favorite things to do is to try on her shoes, or other people's shoes, and walk about. Neither my wife or I pay much interest in our shoes. My daughter looks like she might be the child of a shopaholic with a shoe fetish, but that's not where her interest came from. I have no idea where her interest in shoes came from. She also loves babies and hovers around them whenever they are about. That's just her. I do find the gender divide in toys to be absurd. However, I find most broad-based cultural movements to be absurd. I don't worry about my daughter's interest, but do worry about her freedom to pursue them without the influence of social pressure whether or not they align with, or run counter to, her own. Like most things, I think that's where leading by example is one effective approach.
Not a parent, but thinking back on it, my parents were pretty gender-neutral with their approach to toys. They got us legos for a large part of our childhood, which my older brother, younger sister, and I, enjoyed greatly. We all liked Arthur books, which weren't really gender-based, minus, perhaps, Arthur's sister getting on his nerves - not that you have to be a boy to relate to that! Magic School Bus was taught by an intelligent Ms. Frizzle...my sister really liked Teletubbies, something neither my brother, nor I, understood. I don't know if Teletubbies had a gender, but I still think it's terrifying and stupid. Ain't nothin beat Sesame Street...that being said, we were only allowed large amounts of TV when we were sick, or it was a Saturday morning, otherwise it wasn't allowed to be turned on. When we got into videogames, my parents didn't ever specify that it was a toy for boys, even though that's always what's been considered the norm. To that end, my sister played them along with us, (or thought she was playing, as was the case when I wanted to get into an extra long, single-player RPG without being bothered).
The older I get, the more nonsensical gender divides become. Penises and vaginas are parts that when combined tend to make babies and the babies come out of the people with the vaginas, but none of that follows from it. Also, flagamuffin, there's an explanation for that; somewhere in your brain you still see 'female' as weak and inferior and thus that your son would be 'stepping down' and 'weakening'. It's the same reason conservatives hate gays more than lesbians.
Mmm, maybe. That or society sees boys playing with dolls as worse than girls playing with action figures and I don't want my child to have a stigma.Also, flagamuffin, there's an explanation for that; somewhere in your brain you still see 'female' as weak and inferior and thus that your son would be 'stepping down' and 'weakening'.
The stigma probably exists for the same reason conservatives hate gays more than lesbians. Anyway, if you don't want your child to have a stigma, there are any number of other things kids get stigmatized for and they're impossible to avoid since in many cases both choices result in stigma from somewhere, so better just to teach your son to let it roll off his back and be who he is. There's no way to protect your child from taunty little monsters, and to be honest you can take attempts to do that to an unhealthy extreme, but there are ways to help your child have mental and emotional strength as strong as the physical strength of Olympic weightlifters. If everybody cared what everybody else thought about them, we'd all be emotional cripples, because everybody is hated, disliked, or otherwise not 'gotten' by somebody else. That or society sees boys playing with dolls as worse than girls playing with action figures and I don't want my child to have a stigma.
Definitely. But the temptation is to instead shield him/her from as many sources of external criticism as is within my grasp. Letting my son play with dolls etc. is akin to intentionally setting him up for failure in grade school, which though it may be for his longterm benefit is almost impossible to do.Anyway, if you don't want your child to have a stigma, there are any number of other things kids get stigmatized for and they're impossible to avoid since in many cases both choices result in stigma from somewhere, so better just to teach your son to let it roll off his back and be who he is.
I can't help but think that something would get sacrificed in that process - no, you shouldn't basically throw the kid out in there like a sort of rejected Spartan baby left to die on a mountain, but at least for my part my parents coddled the fuck out of me in some ways and I've had to make up for it when I realized that it had a negative impact on me. So I guess in this case it's a good idea to intervene if your kid is coming home with a persistent serious problem, but there's some kind of teachable moment in your kid dealing with it to a lesser extent. It's never too early to get a little practice dealing with assholes (although with preparation). I'm also fairly sure parents want to minimize the amount of self-parenting their child has to do. How would you respond if your son grew up and asked, 'Dad, what the heck was the deal with being all weird about dolls and shit? I liked those.'But the temptation is to instead shield him/her from as many sources of external criticism as possible.
Not "would get sacrificed" -- does get sacrificed. All kinds of literature on Tiger Moms, What America Needs From Its Parents, blah blah. And I believe that's about the biggest mistake there is. I know several actual parents on hubski feel the same way -- actually the #parenting tag has some of my favorite discussions. But if you let your son play with dolls the odds are just stacked against him ... maybe that's realistic, maybe it's cruel. Two sides of the same coin. I would never deny my children the chance to experience something solely on the basis of gender. The bias I am trying to get over is rather: deliberately exposing them to toys that have traditional gender identities. So your hypothetical would never occur -- else children would be asking their parents that every day. I never asked my father about dolls when I grew up because we never discussed them when I was young.I'm also fairly sure parents want to minimize the amount of self-parenting their child has to do.
How would you respond if your son grew up and asked, 'Dad, what the heck was the deal with being all weird about dolls and shit? I liked those.'
I had a doll that I took everywhere when I was a little kid. I don't think I'm any the worse for it. Turned out straight, not that it matters that much. I think I was born to be a sensitive and empathetic person, and that's all that was reflected in me carrying around a doll for a while. Maybe sensitive and empathetic are generally more feminine, but certainly they're not exclusively so. I'm still a pretty good athlete, after all, still playing hockey and keeping up with 21 years olds at my age. The doll didn't kill my testosterone.
But why perpetuate the problem? Also, not deliberately exposing your son to dolls doesn't mean he never will be. What if he plays with a female friend whose parents do let her play with dolls of some kind in addition to Legos and action figures and all sorts of 'gender-neutral' or stereotypically gendered and he thinks it's fun? The odds are only stacked against him because you let them be. But if you let your son play with dolls the odds are just stacked against him
It's a separate question whether kids should even have all these plastic toys and representations of transient fashions -- I think it encourages materialism, envy and other qualities that parents should avoid cultivating in their children. So when I say "toys associated with both genders," I mean Lincoln logs, legos, children's books that might be thought of as "for boys" -- things that allow creativity and play at the same time.
My wife holds a picnic for her patients every year. Day before Mother's Day. We do a toy-and-clothing swap - bring your old shit, take someone else's new shit. The stuff that doesn't go home with someone else goes home with us and we give it to charity - we hauled $3k worth of stuff last year. My daughter's toys fit in four milk crates. We got rid of one today. Like I said, "Afrin bottle."
Yeah, kinda. You plug a USB port into its back and tell it your kid's name, favorite color, food and animal and load it up with a few songs. Then it sings you the ransom note song: "I like - ....a dog!... - please! It's my fav-o-rite a-ni-malll... I like it to be - PURPLE! - please! It's my favorite color! I like it to eat - ....beans.... - it's my favorite food... and I'll call it ....bob?... just like youuuuuuuuu!" I of course investigated its hackability and discovered that it has so pathetically little memory that there's no point.
Buddy of mine inherited JPL's hobo hoard of Lego Mindstorms when they shuttered one of their outreach programs. As in, literally a steamer trunk of Mindstorms. He does not, as yet, have children. As such, my daughter may well create Skynet before she's 12.
I just looked those up. Holy shit, those look way more involved than the Legos I had as a kid. They look like a ton of fun. Looks a bit safer than an Erector Set. Actually, I just looked those up too. Those also look way safer than what I had, which were essentially pieces just waiting to be turned into shivs. Anyway, if Skynet goes live via toys, at least our robot overlords will be kind of cute (compared to Terminators).
Mindstorms are dope. Legos you can program? Sign me up, coach. I was actually pretty pissed off because when he was getting his grad degree in film, he had to take a course in "robotics" involving Lego Mindstorms. Me? Degree in fuckin' Engineering and the coolest thing I ever got to do was build a see-saw out of chopsticks. And I had to do 30 pages of equations on it. Erector is the bastard stepchild of Meccano, which for the longest time was banned from sale in the US. Nowadays Erector is Meccano, proof positive that it's way cooler. I mean, nobody has ever bothered making a Riefler Escapement out of Erector.
I remember as a kid playing with Meccano sometimes, but mostly as the metal / pro version of K'nex, which has just 8 connector pieces and 6 lengths of beams but lets you make insane stuff like this: Obviously not as refined and complex as Meccano but it was stupendously easy to build a solid structure. Especially fun building towers to see how high you could go. I still have a large box of the stuff lying around somewhere. Did you guys have that too in 'Merica?
Yeah, no. We had Erector, which fucking sucks. 1) It's a step above pot metal. Literally scrap steel. Yield strength of zero, which means when you bend it, it's bent. And it bends really goddamn easily. 2) So structural integrity is added by stamping it. So all your "i-beams" are these dimpled pieces of shit that go straight, straight or straight. Want to put them together at an angle? Guess what? You just bent it. Irrevocably. 3) Nuts are square. Bolts are round-head slotted screws. Threads on nuts are deliberately looser than threads on bolts, so you can't fully attach shit. 4) Plates were plastic, and brittle plastic at that. They'd bend until they broke. Or, if you left them out in the sun at 7,000 feet, where I lived, the UV damage would reduce them to autumn leaves in a day or so. Erector is such shit. I'm so glad it's dead dead dead. You could try and build the shit on the box, but the erector set you got for $30 would build, like, nothing.
Oh no, K'nex was must've been made out of a new plastic-titanium alloy because I don't remember it ever bending. That, or I wasn't a very strong kid. Bonus: if you had some money (I didn't) you could make some really cool looking rollercoasters out of it: Too bad it always goes way too fast through the track. Still, you try building this out of Erector:1) It's a step above pot metal. Literally scrap steel. Yield strength of zero, which means when you bend it, it's bent. And it bends really goddamn easily.
Yeah. Did I mention the rusting? I mean, I lived in the middle of the goddamn desert at 7,000 feet. cars don't rust. Erector? If you didn't rub that shit down with WD-40 it'd rust. Now I'm pissed off about the missed opportunities of my youth due to the shitpile that was Erector. ;-)
Mindstorms, yo. Mindstorms. I also found my wife's old Robotix set in her mom's garage. She's got some Capsela, too. We're already messing around with her Little People. They're dope. They're, like, wood. They were used when grandma got them and that was '75. I mean, Mr. Hooper.
Haha, oh man that's kind of a raw deal . . . but I guess knowing how stuff works is pretty important, something I wish I knew more about (as we've discussed). I've heard the name Meccano from my UK friends, but never really knew much about it. Just took a quick peek at the WikiPedia page. Lots of connections there. I had no idea that General Mills was a toy company. Thanks for the link. I hadn't heard of a Riefler Escapement before and I certainly didn't know that there were clocks so accurate that they could measure changes in gravity caused by tides. That's pretty dope.Degree in fuckin' Engineering and the coolest thing I ever got to do was build a see-saw out of chopsticks. And I had to do 30 pages of equations on it.
In my never-ending quest to become an old man before I'm 40, I've taken an interest in ridiculous wooden clocks. I suspect they're primarily to justify my interest in owning a laser cutter, but nonetheless, I'm into it. The Riefler escapement is pretty much the pinnacle of design for "regulator" clocks until you start invoking electromagnetism. Of course, none of them hold a candle to a 25 cent vending machine quartz watch, but that's not the point. The point is that gears are fucking cool. I mean, jesus.
I really love the look of some of those clocks and the fact that one of those plans utilizes marbles and another is an orrery, really appeal to me too. Plus, you've gotta love a set of plans called "Weird Gears plans". Building one of those might be a lot of fun! I do wonder though, if humidity would affect their precision since they are wooden. I'll admit that I laughed a bit when I saw the Yarn Lover's Package. Given your engineering background, have you ever built a Rube Goldberg machine? I've always loved seeing those and I'd imagine that they're a great time, but a great time like sledding is a great time: it's great when it gets going, but at some point you have to trek back up the hill. I suppose that's figuratively true for a lot of things though. My other question to you is: if you can envision yourself using a laser cutter as part of your hobby or personal interest stuff and if you could afford one, why wouldn't you get one? I'd love to be able to have a workshop where I could just tinker with things and though my tinkering is limited, it always sucks to run up against that wall of lacking a particular tool and not being able to improvise a way around it.
Drastically. Temperature, too. We've got a mantel clock that runs fast or slow depending on the temperature. I'm talking "ten days of warm weather? You're four minutes fast" effects. Pretty sure if you dig deep into that site it'll tell you that if you do it perfectly, you'll be lucky to get them tracking a minute per day. Something to keep in mind: engineers are lazy. Rube Goldberg machines are the maximal effort necessary to accomplish something, usually in an inelegant fashion. They're also characterized by a lack of sturdiness. Neither characteristics are those coveted by engineers. Have I invoked rube goldbergian principles in my work? Mutherfucker, there are 150 Jack In The Box restaurants across Texas and Washington that, at one point, used a thermostat to switch channels on their radios according to schedule. That's only because the guy who sold the systems put in zero dollars for a $1500 dayparting DVD player, though. Am I glad it worked? Yeah. Do I wish I coulda done it right? Oh yeah. So I grew up with a carport full of shit and down at my grandparents' house, a 1500 square foot garage with an A-post lift, a drill press, a metalworking lathe, a cutoff saw, a grease pit and four kinds of welders. Right now, however, I live in a 1200 sqft condo with five flights of stairs between me and my two tandem parking spots. I have an f'ing gas can in my closet because I have nowhere else to put it. Wanna see what I accomplished with my "garden?" Fuck yeah. So. There will come a time when I have room to indulge my hobbies. Until then, I have to put a sheet over the client couch when I dismantle my A-80 because there isn't enough room on the coffee table.I do wonder though, if humidity would affect their precision since they are wooden.
Given your engineering background, have you ever built a Rube Goldberg machine?
if you can envision yourself using a laser cutter as part of your hobby or personal interest stuff and if you could afford one, why wouldn't you get one?
That's not so bad, all things considered. Yeah, I hear you on the space issues. I just wish I didn't have to trade off between access to things I want to do and space that I want to have to do things in. Who knows, maybe I'll win the Powerball . . .Wanna see what I accomplished with my "garden?"