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comment by kleinbl00

It's a good piece. Nicely done.

Speaking as someone who is too white to be anything else, regardless of how many cultures he dips his toes in, allow me to offer a little perspective:

It's a rare thing to spend much time within a social group other than the one you're native to. Sure, you can visit. Sure, you can hang with friends. But I can drive a red sports car. Unlike my neighbor, who gave up on sports cars in his 20s because he was sick of being pulled over by the LAPD for driving while black. And I can understand that, because he's my neighbor. And I can internalize that, because he's my neighbor. And I can speak to that, because he's my neighbor.

But if you don't have a black neighbor, it probably doesn't occur to you.

The other thing to keep in mind is that when you "bring up race" amongst white folks, there's absolutely, positively no way for them not to be the villains. None. It's a rare thing for the honkies/crackers/gringos/gaijin/farang to be on the side of angels when it comes to race. And most of them are not actively attempting to perpetuate racist stereotypes. So the conversation, from their perspective, isn't "racism exists" it's "your ethnic group is oppressing my ethnic group even though we're friends."

I'm not saying there's a better way to do it. I don't think there's a comfortable way to remind your friends that they live a more privileged life than you do, or that those of your color have it harder than those of their color. But I think it's important to recognize that it's often more complicated than "willful ignorance." "Defensive ignorance" maybe. "passive/aggressive ignorance." "Knee-jerk ignorance."

Forgive them, 8bit, for they know not what they do.





humanodon  ·  3920 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I get where 8bit is coming from and I see your point too. It's hard to make it clear to people that passive racism cuts a lot deeper for some than overt racism. Talking about it won't change the fact that things are the way they are. Discomfort is sometimes a sign of growth. Just as often, that growth is a cancer.

Well-meaning people have told me that they forget I'm not white in the same tones they've used to tell me they forget I wear glasses. Even if a lot of people say they don't see color, that they're "colorblind", some of us can't un-see it. Living abroad, I got to see some of my friends experience that for the first time and be utterly shocked by it. All I could do was shrug and say "now you've had a taste. How is it?"

thenewgreen  ·  3920 days ago  ·  link  ·  

People often ask me if I found more racism in the south having moved here from Michigan. My answer is that there is not more racism, just more overt racism. In Michigan it's something whispered in circles that will tolerate it. Down here it's a bumper sticker. I prefer the bumper sticker, good to know who your enemies are and where they are.

The first time I was ever in the south, I was at a wedding in Chattanooga. I was downtown and an elderly woman stopped and asked me what time it was. She heard that I was a northerner from my voice and started telling me all about how wonderful Chattanooga was. She pointed out areas I should go to that were particularly beautiful. Then she pointed out the area that I should avoid because "there are too many niggers". I could not believe it. I had never experienced anything so jarring in my life. I must have turned pale white in shock. I simply backed away and exited the conversation. That sort of thing just doesn't happen in Michigan. However, in Michigan they would use coded words like "thug" or "gangsters" or even "crime" to mean "blacks."

I prefer the lack of "code." I like my evil men to be overt in their idiocy.

briandmyers  ·  3920 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Got to disagree with you here. I much prefer a world where racists at least know that they should be ashamed of holding those views (until, via code words, they realise that others hold similar views). I think it's a step in the right direction, when racists have to be closeted. Sets a better example for the young ones.

TMBG put it well.

thenewgreen  ·  3920 days ago  ·  link  ·  

First of all, thank you very much for the walk down memory lane. Haven't listened to TMBG in far too long. What a great song.

In regards to kids, I'd much rather know who is and isn't racist overtly so that the closet racists have as little interaction with my children as possible, preferably none EVER. If racism is unannounced and beneath the surface it can spread more easily and cannot be confronted head on.

briandmyers  ·  3920 days ago  ·  link  ·  

You can't shelter your kids forever, they will meet racists out in the world. It's a still matter of knowing your (more subtle) enemy. But I see your point exactly.

thenewgreen  ·  3596 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    You can't shelter your kids forever, they will meet racists out in the world
Re-exploring this thread via the BestOf2014 list. I don't think that anyone would ever suggest I was "sheltering" my children by not allowing them to, for example, spend the night at a friends house whose parents are overtly racist. That's just good parenting in my opinion. If they're 10 years old and I'm actively trying to prohibit them from knowing that racism exists, then sure that's sheltering.

A child's mind is a fragile thing and if I can prevent it from encountering hate and ignorance, I will. There will be plenty of time left in their life when such things will not be able to be kept at bay. For now, I'm on duty and I'm going to do my best.

kleinbl00  ·  3920 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    It's hard to make it clear to people that passive racism cuts a lot deeper for some than overt racism.

Why is that, do you think? Now that you mention it, I've seen it, but honky that I am, it hadn't occurred to me. Is it because overt racism you can dismiss as idiocy and antagonism?

humanodon  ·  3920 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  

Overt racism is like a formal declaration of war whereas passive or ingrained racism is like fighting the War on Terror. Overt racism has a face and can be attributed to that one person's or small group's upbringing and life experience. It's something you can lash out at and break the teeth of, or report to the police or the community at large. Passive racism has no face. You can try to fight it, but if no one else sees it then suddenly you're crazy, or overly sensitive, or making mountains out of molehills.

For me, one clear example is the difference in the way people of color are treated if they speak with an accent vs. how white people are treated if they speak with an accent. On some level, it's a psychological trigger that lets the listener know that the speaker is not from wherever "here" is. The almost automatic assumption for most people would be that the white with an accent must be intelligent, because they speak more than one language. The automatic assumption for the person of color is that they don't speak English correctly.

kleinbl00  ·  3920 days ago  ·  link  ·  

In America, white people with an accent - unless it's a few very specific hillbilly or redneck accents - come from somewhere likely to be more civilized than where you are. Accentless English is best found in NorCal and the Pacific Northwest, places that were hinterlands until the 1950s. Even a Philly accent speaks of a culture more refined than yours. Sweden? Ireland? France? Forget about it.

In America, non-white poeple with an accent are upstarts and foreigners from somewhere less civilized. It doesn't matter if Dr. Singh attended Harvard medical school; we're going to hearken back to Apu on the Simpsons because frankly, negative stereotypes are all we know.

The accent matters more than you'd think. I've worked with black producers from the UK and everyone treats them as Brits, not as blacks. A South Indian with a British accent will encounter a great deal less racism than a South Indian with an Indian accent. Gilmore Girls featured a black gay man with a French "gay" accent for seasons; to the best of my knowledge, "race" never figured into the show but "gay" and "french" did. While acknowledging that this is a conscious choice made by a team creating fiction, I think it's also important to note that they were following norms.

humanodon  ·  3920 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Points well taken.

Out of curiosity, have you read Thinking, Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman? I just started reading it and I don't know that it deals with racism at all, but it is very interesting to read what this guy has to say about human behavior and how the mind works. It reminds me a bit of Dan Ariely's Predictably Irrational, which I'm pretty sure we've talked about in the past.

kleinbl00  ·  3919 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I have not. I should. It's an audiobook, which helps.

Currently chugging through the Spin series and Sherry Turkle's Second Self. Probably hit that next.

_refugee_  ·  3918 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    they forget I'm not white

But this is really an offensive statement, right? In a way it says that "white" is both the norm and something that everyone should aspire to, that "seeming white" is a place that we want everyone to go. It's diminishing your own culture and what it means to you.

With that in mind being "colorblind" is also in a way negative or pejorative. Being colorblind means: I see you as associating to the norm. or I see you as white. It diminishes your personhood as a person of color and culture. It says, "I don't see you as belonging to your own culture." It says, "I don't see you - at all."

humanodon  ·  3918 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Exactly