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comment by kleinbl00
kleinbl00  ·  4148 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: There is no way to do Groklaw without email.... So this is the last Groklaw article.

It's been interesting to me to watch everyone get a crash course in the NSA. See the outrage that someone is listening to your phone calls. See the outrage that someone is reading your emails. The horror, the horror.

Are you fucking kidding me.

Google reads your email. That's how they serve up ads. Oh, right - that isn't a human reading it. But it could be. Same with the NSA.

Facebook reads your posts. That's how they serve up ads. Oh, right - that isn't a human being it. But it could be. Same with the NSA.

There's this notion that sending communication across electronic media does not get intercepted by anyone and everyone... or that, if they do, there's some sort of due process. Except we watch Our Heroes do it to The Evil Brown Terrorists all day long, right? Truth, justice and McDonald's?

the FISA court turned down seven warrants in 20 years. "So why doesn't the NSA have to abide by it?" Why do you care? If they rubber-stamp everything anyway, what difference does it make?

The thing that blows my mind is that anyone paying the slightest bit of attention can determine precisely how much surveillance electronic communication is under (hint: total and absolute). The same people who are going "herp derp my liberties" are the ones that are in the absolute best position to know exactly the people who should know this stuff inherently. Why the hell are tech journalists wrist-to-forehead astounded by this shit?

Your government spies on you. Has had since Yeardley Smith. Has never stopped. WILL NEVER STOP. And your blow for freedom is you're going to stop publishing a newsletter?

Grow the fuck up.





pseydtonne  ·  4148 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Hear hear!

In fact, I'd like to take it a step further. Let's get out of our own electrical closets and assume The Man is always listening. Assume your freedom means everyone is listening because you're broadcasting.

There is a huge lesson from the history of the gay community in the US. Back during World War II and for decades after, sailors in the Pacific would get dishonorably discharged for being found as homosexuals. They'd be dropped off in San Francisco for discharge. This fact would be stamped on their papers: no escape. Every potential employer knows, your family knows... so there is no point in going home.

Suddenly you're stuck in a major city with all the other dishonorably discharged and smokin' hot dudes. Might as well start a bar!

The point is that they couldn't choose to come out of the closet: they were thrown out. Thus when the crackdowns and the homophobic violence got bad enough, the gay community unified.

Everyone in America, possibly the world, has been thrown out of the electrical closet. Our online words are public. Suck it up, know it all the time. White male privilege can't save you this time.

mk  ·  4148 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I get the point, but it's not so much my privacy I am worried about. I'm most worried about the oppression and coercion that comes with a surveillance state. When these abilities trickle down to the local level, corruption has a powerful weapon. If they want to hurt me, they hurt my daughter. Or, they threaten to hurt the daughter of another guy they choose to hurt me.

We managed to keep physical mail from dragnet surveillance. We could do the same for email.

kleinbl00  ·  4147 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Right. "We must do something..." I get you. I even agree.

Where we part ways is "...starting with empty gestures." I get tired of it. It's tedious. Changing everyone's facebook photo to a green screen didn't save a single job in Hollywood, so let's stop pretending that e-advocacy matters.

kleinbl00  ·  4148 days ago  ·  link  ·  

That is an AWESOME analogy. Is it true? Is that why San Francisco became such a gay-friendly city?

mk  ·  4148 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I understand the point, however, IMO there have been significant revelations since Snowden. If I tried to start a conversation under the assumption that the NSA has full access to all my emails prior to Snowden, most people would have called me crazy. Heck, even after Snowden, when I suggested it, not everyone thought that our emails were being read. Prior to Snowden, everyone in the NSA and the US government would have denied it.

For the general public, we've gone from something that could be believably denied to cold fact in the last three months.

That's not to say that techies shouldn't have been paranoid enough to use lavabit or something like it, but I think it matters to Jones that even options like that are becoming unsustainable.

But, that aside, I think stopping Groklaw was about as strong a statement that she was in a position to make. A lot of people will miss that newsletter. There is a tangible change brought to their lives due to a surveillance state. It's kinda like the SOPA blackout. Consciousness raising and all that.

kleinbl00  ·  4148 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    If I tried to start a conversation under the assumption that the NSA has full access to all my emails prior to Snowden, most people would have called me crazy.

Most people don't know what the NSA does, despite the dust-up over warrantless wiretapping from 2005. It's a willful ignorance. Outside of Sneakers and Good Will Hunting, there is a whilsting in the dark about what, exactly, the NSA does. You excuse that from the general public.

This is a newsletter about tech law. "Options like that" AREN'T "becoming unsustainable," THEY WERE NEVER EFFECTIVE. That's the truly stupid thing - we're not talking about a bunch of hackers on Tor using 256-bit encryption, we're talking about gmailers. "Consciousness raising?" Seems to me the argument put forth is "hey guise they're reading our email."

The brave thing to do is soldier on and keep doing what you're doing despite the fact that suddenly you feel like your underwear is being pawed through. 'cuz that's just it - IT WAS NEVER REALLY YOUR UNDERWEAR DRAWER TO BEGIN WITH and if the revelation that your private thoughts on public wire weren't all that private is enough to send you into a tailspin, what use are you anyway?

I smell Yellow Ribbon Syndrome - the idea that a meaningless gesture in the face of a large problem is actually accomplishing something, despite the fact that the gesture is only visible to you.

mk  ·  4148 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    I smell Yellow Ribbon Syndrome - the idea that a meaningless gesture in the face of a large problem is actually accomplishing something, despite the fact that the gesture is only visible to you.
I'm conflicted. I think it will probably take plenty of both going on if we are to ever get any real push back. If Yahoo or Google pulled a Groklaw, then there would be a reaction. But there's no way that public companies are going to give a damn unless it affects their bottom line. The only scenario I see there is if enough start moving to an off-shore option that makes it tough on the NSA (not that Deutsche Telekom is that option), but there maybe be money in it for someone in a country that will take a stand on their behalf, maybe Norway, for instance.
kleinbl00  ·  4148 days ago  ·  link  ·  

..except that Qwest told the NSA to pound sand and all they got was frozen out of GSA contracts.

It's not going to happen until there is a legitimate, violent reaction at home. So anything short of demanding the NSA be disbanded is pretty much pointless.

"Fans of sausage and politics should not watch either being made." The United States is the world's puppetmaster and a large percentage of Americans have foolishly presumed there were no strings holding them up.

zaphar  ·  4147 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I love sausage and I've seen it get made. In fact I've made it before. Didn't drive me off sausage at all.

Wish I could say the same thing about politics...

Cortez  ·  4148 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    It's not going to happen until there is a legitimate, violent reaction at home.

No one else understands this.

mk  ·  4148 days ago  ·  link  ·  

There are other possibilities, but they are just as unlikely. For instance, Page and Brin could shut down Google, and keep it off until the NSA backed down. It won't happen. But, it's about as likely as a violent reaction.

kleinbl00  ·  4148 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Blood in the streets has more of a likelihood of doing something than Google giving up marketshare to Bing. The CIA did not pull out of Lebanon until William Francis Buckley was kidnapped - not even the Beirut bombings did the trick. There has to be a real human cost for things to change, and even then, it's a reorganization so they can say "The National Security Agency has stopped spying on the American people" while congress authorizes a trillion dollars for the formation of the National Security Association under seal. We were back in Beirut within 9 months.

Go take a peak at Total Information Awareness. see if the Powerpoint doesn't have the same designer as PRISM. It certainly has the same mission, and we violently fuckin' killed TIA in 2003.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Cortez  ·  4148 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Everyone is too comfortable to get violent really, so it's true that its highly unlikely but when I watch protests, you have the peaceful protests, then you have the heavily armored police hitting them with tear gas canisters and batons.