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comment by Laurelai
Laurelai  ·  4593 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: This is how you *dont* write an article about trans issues
I really don't think it paints a clearer picture at all, it just helps reenforce the "normal" perspective that transgender women are not real women, it reminds the audience not to think of her as a woman who finally had the courage to live her life as she really was but as some kind of freak show, a curiosity one might see in a circus. It also reenforces a lot of transphobic and cissexist attitudes about trans people.




sounds_sound  ·  4593 days ago  ·  link  ·  
I think I get it. I guess the difficult thing for me to wrap my head around (and the most fun to think about) is what the suffix trans even means. I'm sure you've thought about this plenty. It seems a good starting point for me to deal with such a complex set of ideas. Trans: meaning 'across', 'beyond', or 'on the opposite side'. So for something to be trans there needs to be more than one. But Cis: meaning 'on the same side' shares the same logic because one cannot be on the same side of anything without an identified opposite. So following this, I would think that because we use the word transgender it would mean that something was and then was not. And I guess that's where I start to get hung up because if gender is between the ears and not the legs, and if she was always a she, then why use the word transgender at all? Now I've talked myself into thinking that the word trans-gender is maybe oxymoronic. Do I sound like an idiot?
Laurelai  ·  4593 days ago  ·  link  ·  
You don't sound like an idiot.

That being said i think you are overthinking it a bit.

sounds_sound  ·  4593 days ago  ·  link  ·  
Seems worth overthinking to me.
Laurelai  ·  4593 days ago  ·  link  ·  
The point of language is the communication of ideas and emotions, dont get wrapped up in minor details so long as the objective is completed.
AnSionnachRua  ·  4593 days ago  ·  link  ·  
I imagine many would say the same to you objecting to the use of pronouns in this article.
Laurelai  ·  4593 days ago  ·  link  ·  
In this case it isnt a minor detail that harms nobody, its indicative of systematic oppression of transgender people.
AnSionnachRua  ·  4593 days ago  ·  link  ·  
Systematic, no; that would imply that it is coherent, methodical and (most importantly) deliberate; I really don't think the article (or most incorrect pronoun usage w/r/t trans) fits this description.

There's a word on the tip of my tongue that describes it perfectly...

Laurelai  ·  4593 days ago  ·  link  ·  
No im pretty sure the oppression of transgender people is wide spread and ingrained in the system itself.
AnSionnachRua  ·  4593 days ago  ·  link  ·  
Avoiding discussion of whether or not "the system" can be spoken of, that usage really doesn't work.

"Systematic" implies that the thing itself is employed in a systematic manner, not simply that it is "within a system" (technically, everything could be said to be so).

But let us stop. There is no point arguing about the meanings of words when the issue, really, is elsewhere.

sounds_sound  ·  4592 days ago  ·  link  ·  
Thank you for picking up on my more general point that I was getting at before I went to bed last night, and that's about the words we use to describe each other. When I read a post like Trans 101 in all of its objective definiteness and then read this original post which I must say feels pedantic, then I just think what an exhausting exercise it must be. I really salute you Laurelai for your unwavering drive to have transgender persons be treated equally, but at what point do you become a watch dog? And I'm not saying that as a dig on you personally, because I don't know you, but I'm posing it as a serious question. I'm about as majority as one can get. I'm a white american straight educated male. As a transgender person, how do you draw the line between what you represent as a member of something and the individual that your are? What is worth fighting for?
sounds_sound  ·  4592 days ago  ·  link  ·  
P.S. I also think that the greater discussion is elsewhere and that this is a total non issue, but I just really needed to finish that thought because it was stewing all day.
AnSionnachRua  ·  4593 days ago  ·  link  ·  
I noticed the pronoun usage, and thought maybe that's what you were talking about. It's a contentious issue, but I mostly find myself agreeing with b_b.

I find your use of "transphobia" a tad extreme. While I don't mean to trivialise your concerns at all (if incorrect pronoun use is problematic, it is problematic, even if it is only a subtle manifestation of "transphobia") the article as a whole seems to be rather fair and supportive. I would've thought transphobia is reserved for things more... vitriolic, perhaps.

You say that "she never was a male just was forced to live like one", and I think that cuts to the heart of the issue. Being forced to live like a male, she was also forced to be treated like a man in linguistic terms. This is not a good thing; but it's that she was forced to live like a man, and not that people are not yet prepared to linguistically deal with her situation, that is the primary problem.

See it from their perspective. They wanted to write about how a man who became a woman has been mistreated. Perhaps they neglected to use pronouns in a way that is accepted by the trans community, but given their intentions they can hardly be said to be "transphobic," I think.

Of course, you can easily write off everything I say as transphobia...

Is it "transphobic" in your eyes, indeed, for me to say that he was a man who became a woman? How else are we to talk about it? It would be confusing if they had used "she" and "Ashley" throughout; it would not read well, and would do a worse job of getting the story across. Perhaps "a woman in a male body changed her body to that of a female," yes...

Laurelai  ·  4593 days ago  ·  link  ·  
First of all i am transgender so i do have some insight into this.

    I would've thought transphobia is reserved for things more... vitriolic, perhaps.

There are many forms and degrees of transphobia just like there are many forms and degrees of racism.

    This is not a good thing; but it's that she was forced to live like a man, and not that people are not yet prepared to linguistically deal with her situation, that is the primary problem.

And continuing to do it in the media only slows down progress.

    See it from their perspective.

I think you should try to see it from ours instead.

    Is it "transphobic" in your eyes, indeed, for me to say that he was a man who became a woman?

Yes absolutely.

    How else are we to talk about it? It would be confusing if they had used "she" and >"Ashley" throughout; it would not read well, and would do a worse job of getting the story across. Perhaps "a woman in a male body changed her body to that of a female," yes

The word transgender adequately describes the situation. Simply describing her as a transgender woman and perhaps linking to the wikipedia article about transgender for the people who might be confused. All the article does is take a very brave womans story and uses it to further misconceptions about trans people, and as someone who has also done journalistic work the lack of research and thoroughness of the article is appalling as well.

AnSionnachRua  ·  4593 days ago  ·  link  ·  
I suppose this level is something one would say that cannot be seen from the other side. Or rather it is behind a veil, and only when you look past the veil do you realise that the veil was there. Feminism offers a good example; most people will tell you that the oppression of the female does not exist; they must get to a point where such an hypothesis can seem valid.

Pardon my phrasing; I slept little.

Anyway, I was just sticking up for the underdog. I can acknowledge that incorrect pronoun use is perhaps a form of (latent) transphobia; I merely wish to say that these people thought they were doing good. You're quite right in saying that discrimination comes in many forms and degrees.