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comment by bioemerl
bioemerl  ·  3331 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Chernobyl and Other Places Where Animals Thrive Without People

    The same logic should go towards developing our understanding about the natural world. We need to use what we know not to control what we have, but to preserve it, to nurture it.

Why? What point does it serve?

    even if at some point we become mature enough to think that it's a good idea, we're talking about the whole planet here. It's too big, it's too important, to take that risk.

Nobody will just get up one day, no nation will just "decide" to do this. It will happen due to necessity. We will find ourselves in a world where nature has failed, has collapsed, or has begun to screw us over, and we will have to "take the wheel".

The world isn't stable, the environment isn't stable, less so now that we are around. Global warming, ice ages, supervolcanic eruptions, meteors. Nature/natural events are primed and armed to wipe us, and most species with us, off the face of the planet.

We take control, or we die.

Imagine we had stayed a little, agrarian, society. Imagine we never started burning coal, causing global warming, and using forests at such paces as we do now. All we do in taking that course is have "safe" existence of a few hundred million for a couple hundred thousand years before we die off just as the Dinos did.

Instead, we chose the more risky, but the only potentially successful path, the one that leads us off planet, and with power enough to influence the planet's entire environment to suit our needs, and that was the best choice.

    We have a long, long way to go until we consider ourselves mature as a species.

We will never be a mature species, we will always face issues, and never be satisfied, it's human nature.

    We know where our behaviors lead to, both through past experiences as well as deductive reasoning. We know what we can do, should do to change, but we often don't do it

I would argue that, as a collective, we do not know these things. Society is the sum of it's parts, no the thoughts of it's smartest indaviduals. The decisions it makes are based on the decisions of everyone, not just those well educated and aware of the issues of global warming, rich enough to not have the emotional attachment to that global warming means you lose what made up your whole life.

I live in a coal town, or used to. Every last one of those people tend to be against clean coal, the thing that killed their town. There is more to the decision than just the "clear" answer.

    The thing is though, through flaws such as greed, selfishness, apathy, cowardice, and negligence, we let this behavior happen way more frequently than it should.

Could we stop it? Look at twitch plays pokemon for a prime example of this. Look at the reddit "hivemind", look at how so many human-systems work. It's not that simple.

How do "we" just suddenly change course, how do you just suddenly shift an entire system so drastically in a short time? You can't. Selfishness, apathy, cowardice, and negligence are all things humans do, and things we have to learn to deal with, not things we can simply decide away with. Problems to be fixed, not problems that we can decide to no longer cause.

    We, as a collective whole, tsk our tongues and shake our heads saying "something should be done about this" and then go about our day

An indication that the issues we face aren't important enough to change our lives to fix, in other words. People are reactive more than proactive. Fossil fuels began their big decline after prices went up, not after warnings that oil would run out. Expecting humanity to act proactively on things isn't honest. That's not how society has ever worked.

    Biodiversity means having ecosystems with as many numerous different organisms as possible. The more, the merrier. The more vital, the better.

This may be true, but the purpose of biodiversity is to prevent diseases and genetic single-ness that causes all sorts of issues. By ensuring sufficient genetic variation between a crop, you create the diversity needed to ensure safety of the crop, and of those who eat those crops.

    When we study plants and animals, we often gain new insights that help is everything from medicine to agriculture to industry and design to, once again, environmental preservation.

And as our knowledge of the genome continues to increase, we may see the day where human inspired changes, recorded through time, becomes a greater source of knowledge than observing creatures created by way of evolution.

    The fact that we have gone through multiple mass extinction events in our planets history and yet we always somehow bounce back to a diverse ecosystem with niche species illustrates that natural mechanisms not only favor diversity, but encourages it.

This does not indicate that such a system is the better system, especially considering those multiple mass extinction events. I'd prefer change from that particular status-quo, and mankind is the only species with the power to drive that change.

    Look at what is of value here though. The OP feels good about what he did, allowing him to further value himself.

    People are looking at a small problem, something that could stand to be changed, and are promoting it.

And these are the mechanisms that drive progress, I agree. While I don't entirely agree that the feelings of a fish should really matter very much, this is a massive indication of why exactly mankind is so unique, and why our society constantly seems better than the ones a generation ago. The constant discussion, the constant refreshing of new ideas. These have to happen for progress to be made, and they need to happen on a scale that strikes the majority of 300 million people to drive appropriate change in only one nation.

The scale of these conversations, the impact they have to have, is massive, and they will have that impact in time, when most people are having that discussion, when the thing effects most. Until then, we can't expect change to appear, we can't expect perfection to come from every moment of every person's life. We have to give it time. A hundred years from now may seem a utopia, but I guarantee they will tell you a hundred absurd problems you may react against in a negative way, just like a republican senator clutching onto a snowball..





user-inactivated  ·  3330 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Why? What point does it serve?

Because nature brings us beauty and inspiration. It gives us the opportunity to find insights, both scientific and philisophical. It gives us a heritage that we can pass on, a sense of purpose to encourage us to grow and do right. All of those things, they are priceless. Priceless

    Nobody will just get up one day, no nation will just "decide" to do this. It will happen due to necessity. We will find ourselves in a world where nature has failed, has collapsed, or has begun to screw us over, and we will have to "take the wheel".

    The world isn't stable, the environment isn't stable, less so now that we are around. Global warming, ice ages, supervolcanic eruptions, meteors. Nature/natural events are primed and armed to wipe us, and most species with us, off the face of the planet.

    We take control, or we die.

No. You keep on talking in terms of extremes. It's either this or that. Not only am I saying that going to those extremes is unessecary, cause it is, but it's risky. If we fuck up, we're done.

We can take prevantative measures, to protect us from droughts, asteroids, quakes, famines, and whatever else nature throws at us. We can protect ourselves, we can find ways to adapt and recover, and we can and will continue to thrive. We can do all of that without having to take the reigns. We can often find that it's easier to get better results just by doing less.

    We will never be a mature species, we will always face issues, and never be satisfied, it's human nature.

Right. I agree. There's always more to discover. More to develop. More to embrace. Ideally, we can continue to grow by leaps and bounds as the centuries continue to tick off. Right now though, we still act like children. Petulant, short sighted children. We have a long way to go.

    Could we stop it? Look at twitch plays pokemon for a prime example of this. Look at the reddit "hivemind", look at how so many human-systems work. It's not that simple.

    How do "we" just suddenly change course, how do you just suddenly shift an entire system so drastically in a short time? You can't. Selfishness, apathy, cowardice, and negligence are all things humans do, and things we have to learn to deal with, not things we can simply decide away with. Problems to be fixed, not problems that we can decide to no longer cause.

Come on now. Are you going to ignore your previous post? The one where you said we're so much better than we were just 2000 years ago, during biblical times? These things take time. You know it, I know it. Once again though, it's not going to happen if we all just shrug our shoulders and say "Welp. I guess that's just the way it is." We have to want it. To work for it. Struggle for it. In our desire and our struggle to better ourselves, not only will we find greater value in the ways we have grown, but we'll also have developed the behavior and mindset that fosters healthier and more productive social behavior.

    Expecting humanity to act proactively on things isn't honest. That's not how society has ever worked.

Yet. We can change. In order to do so though, we have to see the value in it and to want that change. We do it all the time. Remember your example about slavery? Huh? Yeah? Right? That's us seeing value in changing our behaviors.

    This may be true, but the purpose of biodiversity is to prevent diseases and genetic single-ness that causes all sorts of issues. By ensuring sufficient genetic variation between a crop, you create the diversity needed to ensure safety of the crop, and of those who eat those crops.

Sure. I agree. That doesn't mean that biodiversity is without value.

    This does not indicate that such a system is the better system, especially considering those multiple mass extinction events. I'd prefer change from that particular status-quo, and mankind is the only species with the power to drive that change.

Once again, we don't have to take the reigns to keep this from happening. All we have to do is act appropriately when and where need be.

    And these are the mechanisms that drive progress, I agree. While I don't entirely agree that the feelings of a fish should really matter very much, this is a massive indication of why exactly mankind is so unique, and why our society constantly seems better than the ones a generation ago. The constant discussion, the constant refreshing of new ideas. These have to happen for progress to be made, and they need to happen on a scale that strikes the majority of 300 million people to drive appropriate change in only one nation.

    The scale of these conversations, the impact they have to have, is massive, and they will have that impact in time, when most people are having that discussion, when the thing effects most. Until then, we can't expect change to appear, we can't expect perfection to come from every moment of every person's life. We have to give it time. A hundred years from now may seem a utopia, but I guarantee they will tell you a hundred absurd problems you may react against in a negative way, just like a republican senator clutching onto a snowball..

Oh. I agree. One hundred percent. Yet once again, you contradict yourself.

    Could we stop it? Look at twitch plays pokemon for a prime example of this. Look at the reddit "hivemind", look at how so many human-systems work. It's not that simple.

    How do "we" just suddenly change course, how do you just suddenly shift an entire system so drastically in a short time? You can't. Selfishness, apathy, cowardice, and negligence are all things humans do, and things we have to learn to deal with, not things we can simply decide away with. Problems to be fixed, not problems that we can decide to no longer cause.

That was you just a few lines ago. I reiterate. By embracing the virtues of conservation and stewardship, we are developing attributes and behaviors needed to advance our society. It's like a sapling though. Those behaviors have to start out on a small scale and grow and develop over time before it can be applied on a grander scale.

bioemerl  ·  3330 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    We can take prevantative measures, to protect us from droughts, asteroids, quakes, famines, and whatever else nature throws at us. We can protect ourselves, we can find ways to adapt and recover, and we can and will continue to thrive.

We cannot force the climate to stay as it is without learning to change it ourselves. We cannot prevent asteroids, protect ourselves as a species, without going to another planet and colonizing it, creating a new ecosystem from the ground up. We cannot prevent earthquakes, famines, and whatever else nature may throw at us without taking control of the things that cause them.

Can we endure them? Yes. However, doing so sentences thousands of people to death.

    Right now though, we still act like children. Petulant, short sighted children. We have a long way to go.

If humanity never stops progressing, this statement will never stop being true.

    it's not going to happen if we all just shrug our shoulders and say "Welp. I guess that's just the way it is."

That is true. I was speaking against the idea that humanity today is somehow in the wrong, or somehow immoral, somehow negative. The way society is today, all the issues we face, are signs of the times, signs of our abilities. We should always seek to expand and grow those abilities, to inform those who are wrong.

However, their existence is not counter to the fact that humanity can and will grow to the point that it controls the planet from the ground up. We can and will become mature enough as a species to do so.

    Remember your example about slavery? Huh? Yeah? Right? That's us seeing value in changing our behaviors.

The thing that took the bloodiest civil war in history to end? The thing whose effects still face us today? The thing whose practice was extended far beyond the point it was needed, to the point it was actively harming the societies it was part of?

We likely won't see the big push against global warming until we are in the same, or a similar situation, where the effects of it are clearly effecting us.

    That doesn't mean that biodiversity is without value.

If it has value, that value will be extracted. If the costs are higher than the value, it will not be.

    It's like a sapling though. Those behaviors have to start out on a small scale and grow and develop over time before it can be applied on a grander scale.

What is this supposed to mean?

user-inactivated  ·  3329 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    We cannot force the climate to stay as it is without learning to change it ourselves. We cannot prevent asteroids, protect ourselves as a species, without going to another planet and colonizing it, creating a new ecosystem from the ground up. We cannot prevent earthquakes, famines, and whatever else nature may throw at us without taking control of the things that cause them.

    Can we endure them? Yes. However, doing so sentences thousands of people to death.

We don't need to control things to prevent the damages they cause. A diverse agrictultural system with a robust storage and distribution network would prevent famines. Done. Better architecture and infrastructure combined with a greater understanding of geological activity to create better early warning systems would mitigate much of the damage caused by earthquakes, tidal waves, and volcanos. Done. Same thing can be applied to weather phenomenon like tornados and hurricanes. Asteroids and meteors? There's so many out there that even attempting to control a portion of them would be a huge waste of time and resources. All we need is a good, defensive net. Metaphorically speaking, you don't need to control the lion outside your village, you just need a good enough wall.

    If humanity never stops progressing, this statement will never stop being true.

Eh. Semantics. Maybe as a species we'll hit a peak or maybe we'll hit a plateu. Either way, where we are now is a far cry from where we can and should be.

    That is true. I was speaking against the idea that humanity today is somehow in the wrong, or somehow immoral, somehow negative. The way society is today, all the issues we face, are signs of the times, signs of our abilities. We should always seek to expand and grow those abilities, to inform those who are wrong.

We agree.

    However, their existence is not counter to the fact that humanity can and will grow to the point that it controls the planet from the ground up. We can and will become mature enough as a species to do so.

We disagree.

    The thing that took the bloodiest civil war in history to end? The thing whose effects still face us today? The thing whose practice was extended far beyond the point it was needed, to the point it was actively harming the societies it was part of?

    We likely won't see the big push against global warming until we are in the same, or a similar situation, where the effects of it are clearly effecting us.

It was something that was going to end eventually, because it's demonstrably harmful. For our country, it took a war. That sucks, but change isn't always easy.

As for climate change, we're starting to see change now. Renewable energy. Emission controls. People getting angry at nations and corporations being run by dicks. It's a slow progression, yes, but campared to where we were 15 and 20 years ago, we've made some decent progress and the progress we're making and the impact it has will hopefully continue to snowball.

    What is this supposed to mean?

I guess you're not one for metaphors. Change, especially meaningful change, doesn't always happen overnight. It often starts out small, a few people here and there with a desire to make things better (or worse). By acting positively and encouraging others to do so, their behavior as well as the impact of their behavior slowly spreads to more and more people. As it spreads, other people contribute their own ideas, skills, and resources, making the foundation for that change that much stronger. The change grows, multiplies, and gets stronger. Like a tree.