Yeah, no chance I'm reading a "you don't know how hard it is to be ME" novel from an anonymous misogynist.
What he fails to see is the response; everyone patting him on the back, telling him how brave he is for voicing the majority opinion (anonymously.)
What a fucking hero!
For those of us that don't think working with computers requires you to be an angry virgin, this sort of stuff is incredibly depressing. We aren't all self-pitying cowards. Some of us use or real names to speak our views on the internet; consequences be damned.
Seeing someone cry about how tough it is being in the majority is about as cringey as it gets.
Just stop. You're embarrassing ALL of us.
It is supremely possible to be both code-literate and morally upright. It's a shame that the internet victims of imagined crimes make it look so unusual.
For those that enjoy computers, games, logic, math, but don't inexplicably hate women:
You're not alone, and we need to speak up about the absurdity of this majority pity party. They're trying to keep the boys club intact, but fuck them. A little diversity would be a nice change.
I also stopped reading when it became clear that the author was saying women should shut up about online harassment. Unless he really buried a 180-degree turn somewhere in that text wall, his argument seems to be that the reason women stay out of tech isn't vicious misogynist attacks; it's all these dreadful women speaking up about it.
Nope. Disagree.
Zoe Quinn, Anita Sarkeesian, etc. They are the tanks who draw the trolls to them with taunts, so that other party members, who have less HP and defense, don't have to take damage directly.
The author's assessment of Zoe Quinn's and Anita Sarkeesian's behavior is accurate. The part he gets wrong is moral judgement of those actions.
He lacks the ethical understanding of appropriate responses to internet-scale abuse. He finds himself as collateral damage in the reaction to a sexist gaming culture run by teenage boy morality. He didn't have the social conscience earlier in his career to try to stop things from getting as bad as they have, and he doesn't have the perspective now in his late career to realize he's on the wrong side.
I thought the title was ironic. I read three or four paragraphs, skimmed a little way, and my stomach turned.
I don't need to read Mein Kampf to know it's garbage. I don't need to read misogynistic drivel to know the same.
I'm new to hubski but honestly? I expected thoughtful discussions rather than a juvenile emotional outburst
"Man is least himself when speaking in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will say the truth."
ps apropos of nothing, how do you block someone in hubski?
Not that Gamergate is even remotely as bad as Hitler, but walls of texts and 'I'm so disappointed the discussion wasn't reasonable' don't make a point of view not terrible.
When you already know how toxic something is, it's usually better to loudly condemn it than to give its proponents another chance to peddle their talking points.
- 7) From speaking to several women within the AAA industry, including one in particular who talks at schools about pursuing a career in the games industry, this narrative of women getting attacked for no reason, and the grossly incorrect view that the games industry itself is an actively hostile place for women, or a self-fueled ‘old boys network’, is making the problem WORSE. The number one question being ‘how will I survive in this industry’ despite the games industry generally crying out for female developers, and all of these women reporting their studios making them feel welcome.
Putting aside the unique viewpoint female developers bring to the table, working in a single gender environment is pretty horrible and unhealthy, when you consider that most game industry devs move to new cities for their jobs and likely only have colleagues as their entire exclusive social circle. It’s ridiculous to suggest anyone, bosses or employees, in the games industry likes the status quo of having no women among our number, or that we actively work to maintain this status quo. It’s horrible. But the resumes just aren’t there.
Worse, the number of resumes for female developers available for AAA studios to hire is going down because of this fabricated perceived hostility they will face, and this is only going to make women less represented in games as time goes on, fewer strong female characters in games.
Even to accept at face value that any female indie developer on twitter will get masses of abuse for no reason but their gender, this still has nothing to do with the respect and appreciation a AAA games studio and its employees would have for female colleagues. Considering the AAA industry seems to be the number one focus of the sexism charges, it’s time to stop painting employment at a big studio as some misogynistic hell hole.
It’s completely false and hurtful to the industry and is actually achieving the exact opposite of your apparent goals to improve the portrayal of women in games.
Seems like he is definitely asking NOT to keep the boys club intact
- From speaking to several women within the AAA industry, including one in particular who talks at schools about pursuing a career in the games industry, this narrative of women getting attacked for no reason, and the grossly incorrect view that the games industry itself is an actively hostile place for women, or a self-fueled ‘old boys network’, is making the problem WORSE
So when women find out that other women in the game industry have almost ubiquitously had negative experiences, they're not inclined to pursue it as a career?
Shocking.
Does this need deconstructing? You have a prototypical game dev saying the problem is, women are pointing out the problems. It was so much better when they were silent about it, and it's actually THEIR FAULT for bringing up issues within the culture. And this is backed up by some anecdotal evidence that is in conflict with vast data from women across all STEM disciplines.
No, he wants the boys club to stay intact, but he also wants women around that won't complain about it.
The MOST important take away from this is he's saying that when women share their experience of working in the game industry those experiences are invalid, and the real problem is that they're... lying? They're part of a conspiracy?
Who knows.
But again, it's depressing that people view this as anything except a shameful pity party for the majority.
Okay, so the women who say that the industry isn't the misogynistic wasteland described by other women then are invalid experiences in your opinion? Where did you pull out women having had ubiquitously negative experiences in gaming from (and I'm assuming by you throwing in STEM into that, a field I'm a part of where both my undergraduate and graduate class were about half women and half men, you believe these ubiquitously negative experiences extend into it also). I absolutely believe many women have had negative experiences (yes, in STEM too) but to just make a sweeping suggesting that ALL women have had negative experiences is absurd. And not helping. Yes, point out the flaws but don't create false narratives and don't flat out lie and label anyone who is disagreeing with you a misogynist. Some of them might be, but I doubt most are. In fact, from my experience in STEM and the gaming community most certainly aren't and also point out many of the issues with inspiring women to join the communities. A few are, but they are just a few. From my experience.
And his problem, if you paid attention to what he wrote, isn't women pointing out problems. It's specific women creating problems or manipulating the few vocal misogynists to turn personal gain out of a movement that is supposed to bring about equality and inclusion for all women who are interested in the industry. At no point did he say women pointing out problems is his problem.
- Okay, so the women who say that the industry isn't the misogynistic wasteland described by other women then are invalid experiences in your opinion?
There are a lot of great guys in tech. I know a lot of them. But it only takes a 1/4 or a 1/3 of the male population in STEM (broadly speaking) to turn women off on subjects that they have an innate desire to pursue. And this is the crowd talking about how women's experiences don't matter. I never said no women have positive experiences in STEM. I never said most women have primarily negative experiences in tech. I said women in stem "have almost ubiquitously had negative experiences in tech." How about the first study I found in a google search? Don't like that one? Look at the next one. Don't like that one? Look at the next one. Don't play stupid. It's irritating that you're pretending that what everyone knows isn't the case. A lot of women have bad experiences in tech. There are entire industries built on white men being upset about the few issues that they face. Nothing like conservative talk radio exists on the feminist end of the spectrum; nothing even remotely close.
Every one of your points you yourself likely know are defenseless.
Technology, and STEM, belongs to everyone. The transition to a more open field, from discipline to discipline, is going to be ugly, petty, and depressing.
But I think that 2/3 or 3/4 of men that genuinely want STEM to be a better place for women is going to win out over the bitching and moaning from a small minority of moral/mental truants.
And even if I'm wrong, I think women will manage to make their way one way or the other.
It's sad to see so much hysterical opposition from people who have nothing to lose by simply being decent, no matter how it turns out.
If I paraphrased you poorly then you definitely paraphrased the author poorly and now have also paraphrased me poorly. I said that I agree that many women have had bad experiences
- I absolutely believe many women have had negative experiences (yes, in STEM too) but to just make a sweeping suggesting that ALL women have had negative experiences is absurd. And not helping. Yes, point out the flaws but don't create false narratives and don't flat out lie and label anyone who is disagreeing with you a misogynist.
You said almost ubiquitously, which means almost all which means you did say most women have had primarily negative experiences in gaming.
- "have almost ubiquitously had negative experiences in tech"
In what way do I
- play stupid. It's irritating that you're pretending that what everyone knows isn't the case. A lot of women have bad experiences in tech.
My issue is, as is the authors, that specific women take advantage of this, push the rhetoric, bait those few (which you just agreed are the minority, although I think it's a greater minority than doubt but there are no studies showing the actual number so I'll take your word over mine for it) trolls/misogynists into continually harassing them through taunts so that they can use the visible harassment for personal gains (e.g. Anita Sarkeesian). His issue, like mine, is that instead of using facts, they bend the truth and flat lie about inherent sexism in specific games that don't have it.
- It's sad to see so much hysterical opposition from people who have nothing to lose by simply being decent, no matter how it turns out.
Again, from your last post I doubt you are going to actual consider what I wrote and read it without seeing what you want and twisting my words. Sorry for not COMPLETELY agreeing with what you say (even though if you actually looked at the things we said we pretty much agreed on major issue of sexism in STEM/gaming but disagreed as to the scale and the representation of victims and harassers on both sides).
Here are some links for you to look at:
misogynist men aren't the only thing pushing women out of STEM
an example of a woman in STEM experiencing hostility from other women for not conforming
The history of bullying from one of the vocal figureheads of feminism, Part 1