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comment by user-inactivated
user-inactivated  ·  3198 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: The Repugnant Conclusion

This is a fun read, in the sense that paradoxes and "if A then B then nonsense" ideas are fun (Maximin e.g.).

Personally, I often find myself arguing from a utilitarian, rationalist point of view, but I actually dislike utilitarianism as anything but a pragmatic approach to solving certain problems. As a moral system, it doesn't scale in ways that apply to human nature, and it raises more questions than it answers. For the record, I enjoyed the reasoning present in 2.1.2. And I tend to find that common sense carves right through almost every moral conundrum there is.

Badged because it's the sort of thing I want to be presented with on a Friday night.

PS: wasoxygen I've been sending a lot of long crap at you lately, I feel. Instead of apologizing, I will forge boldly ahead.





wasoxygen  ·  3198 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I have been busy with homework, but do appreciate the long crap.

aeromill  ·  3197 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I think that when you take a closer look at the "common sense" approach you will find your self subconsciously trying to maximize happiness regardless which is Utilitarianism anyways.

user-inactivated  ·  3197 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Some will, some won't.

aeromill  ·  3197 days ago  ·  link  ·  

What would people value that isn't ultimately happiness?

user-inactivated  ·  3197 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I suspect your definition of happiness may be different from mine. Many people throughout history have valued things other than their own direct happiness, such as the happiness of their children and relatives, their potential inclusion in the afterlife, an ascetic lifestyle, a private set of ethics, hardships for the sake of personal growth, etc.

aeromill  ·  3197 days ago  ·  link  ·  

The means at which people seek happiness varies, sure. But all those things you listed are just means to an end of happiness for the individual. This sounds "selfish" in nature, which it is, but it's a different kind of selfishness from the egocentric one we commonly refer to.

user-inactivated  ·  3197 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Yes, I assumed that's what you meant. I disagree, and a Buddhist might be offended.

I also do not think that maximizing utility and maximizing happiness are the same thing. You seem to be describing hedonism, not utilitarianism.

sullyj3  ·  3190 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I mean, hedonistic utilitarianism is a thing. There are a bunch of different variants of utilitarianism with differing ideas of what utility should be.

aeromill  ·  3197 days ago  ·  link  ·  

> I disagree, and a Buddhist might be offended.

Buddhists seek to eliminate pain which is Utilitarian as Utilitarianism seeks to maximize happiness and minimize pain.

>I also do not think that maximizing utility and maximizing happiness are the same thing.

Utility is actually happiness by definition: "Utility is defined in various ways, including as pleasure, economic well-being and the lack of suffering." I'm not describing hedonism as I'm not solely referring to bodily pleasures as the good.

shiranaihito  ·  3197 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I think "utility" would be better defined as "applicability as a means towards an end".

aeromill  ·  3197 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Within the context of philosophy utility, especially for utilitarians, is not usefulness, it's happiness. It's called utility because it's useful towards the end of happiness.

shiranaihito  ·  3196 days ago  ·  link  ·  

So "utility" is both "happiness" and "something that's useful towards the end of happiness".

In other words, it's both the end and the means towards it at the same time? But that makes no sense. That's like saying the act of driving a car is both "getting someplace" and the means towards it.

    "Utility is defined in various ways, including as pleasure, economic well-being and the lack of suffering."

Not only that, but Utility is also various things that aren't at all related to how the word is commonly understood. This is like me defining a strawberry as something that could be an apple, an orange, or perhaps a coconut.

To be fair, the quoted definition has a common theme. The various definitions are all positive things. But on the other hand, my example is just as good, because the various definitions are all delicious fruits!

aeromill  ·  3196 days ago  ·  link  ·  

>So "utility" is both "happiness" and "something that's useful towards the end of happiness".

No. Utility is the usefulness in achieving the end. And the end is happiness. And achieving the end well is aggregating a lot of happiness. Therefore high utility is high happiness. For that reason philosophers equate utility with happiness. It's a definition specific to philosophy.

Hopefully that clears things up.

shiranaihito  ·  3196 days ago  ·  link  ·  

You're still equating it with both the end and the means towards it. In other words, you're still not making sense.

aeromill  ·  3196 days ago  ·  link  ·  

No.

The Utility is the how well it accomplishes the end. It's a way of describing how good the means are. The end is happiness. I'm not saying that utility is the means. I'm saying that utility is how it's measured.

shiranaihito  ·  3196 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Here's what you originally said:

    utility, especially for utilitarians, is not usefulness, it's happiness. It's called utility because it's useful towards the end of happiness

But now you're saying.. something different that I can't be bothered to parse right now.

I give up.