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comment by thenewgreen
thenewgreen  ·  3414 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Can we cogently refute "stealing is stealing"?

In my opinion, there is a huge gulf between stealing a loaf of bread to feed your family and illegally downloading the latest Miley Cyrus song. There are differences between wants and needs. Now, if it were a Wilco song, or a previously unreleased Beatles track....

Edit: in all seriousness, take someone like cW that recently released an album that he put a lot of time and money in to making. He is not wealthy, has no label and is counting on album sales to cover costs. What if his album becomes popular enough that 1000 people would have paid $10 each to buy it, but instead 70% of them illegally download it? He's out $7k. That's a real hit. That's stealing bread out of his mouth.

Miley can afford it, cW cannot. Where do you draw the distinction? When is it okay to steal it?

It is stealing.





cW  ·  3414 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  

Note: I wrote this essay length reply to thenewgreens post on my smallest laptop in the world workaround, currently my window into the cyberverse. My eyes will take their vengeance on me presently. Meanwhile, I see there is much more discussion here, probably much of which refers to that which I refer, and much more. Hopefully, someday, I'll catch up. Realistically, I won't. Cheers to all nonetheless!

Well, thanks for looking out for my interests, my friend, and I hate to do any injury to my theoretically possible future self/career, but at a moment like this, it would be simply perverse not to adduce the following:

Copying is Not Theft

The fact that it doesn't serve my personal economic interests would be no worthy excuse not to confess the following: the foundational problem here is that ownership (the basis by which theft can be assessed) is itself nothing more than a contingently necessary mass-hallucination. It has no self-evident qualities, no a priori claim upon being. It might as well have been a dozen other ways, and in fact, it has. Even among societies which have participated in the belief in ownership, modern western notions of ownership remain distinct, the most highly augmented and elaborate. This distinction reveals primarily the importance of ownership, i.e., the regulation of access to stuff as a means of controlling reality, to our society. The most fantastical of these notions, the furthest abstracted from any basis or grounds in material reality, is that of intellectual property. The above video does a brilliant job of illustrating this fact, along with a hilariously nursery rhyme-esque ditty and animation to boot, which is why I love it so much, and am so delighted to share it. The laws that protect intellectual property serve to reward and thereby fuel visionaries (and any of those legally capable of appropriating said-visionaries breakthroughs), and as such, we must regard it as a powerful tool for discovery and progress. This rationale is, however, entirely utilitarian, and therefore contingent. It has no basis in reality, and is in fact contrary to what we see in the natural world, wherein discoveries, developments, evolutions, etc., are distributed, disseminated, inherited, etc., equally, and without any thought for compensation or establishment of paternity.

I ought to say that the difference between taking bread and taking files of music/what have you does demonstrate something significant about different kinds of ownership, as defined. While the taking of bread for the hungry is palpably more urgent, it also deprives the former bread-holder of actual calories. Dude now needs another loaf. On the digital download side of things, we see no urgency of acquisition, but also no deprivation of anything previously held. The mp3 is the digital equivalent of Jesus Christ's loaves and fishes, broken 5,000 times and still remaining entirely whole.

I do believe it is important to support our artists, and I am incredibly grateful to all those who have, and who will, support my own artistic endeavors. However, I would argue that to protect my own wellbeing, and indeed the vitality of our culture, we must take a different tack than that which our production/consumption based society would offer us. Instead of regarding our art as units of production, which are expected to go out into the market and return us ducats from faceless consumers in whereverland, as would a pair of tennis shoes or a smartphone or a spool of floss, we might regard it as a vital medium which connects us all, and in which we all are welcomed to have ownership, not the ownership of exclusive access, but the ownership of active participation, of engagement, and of the enfranchisement which attends active engagement.

Someone once said (and I think it was Billy Corgan, though I can't track it down ... any help?) that the music industry had basically invited the scourge of illegal downloading by pushing its artists for so long to make songs which were ever more disposable. The pop song is meant to hook you on the first listen, infect you on the second, and sicken you on the third. That way you'll be ready to welcome the next one. So what if we instead create work that is meant to outlast us, and welcome a community of listeners to be as actively engaged as were any of Shakespeare's rambunctious penny audiences?

I'd like people not to download music illegally, but not because I think it's theft, or because I think it's wrong. Rather, I'd like them to consider what they are cheating themselves out of by not committing to the works of art they are consuming, and how much more rich will their experience of it become once they show up and participate in the experience, and contribute, not just financially, which is an expression of what we value, but also with their focus, their thoughts, and their vital life energy. We don't have to swallow the modern Western faux-divides of audience/performer, connoiseur/virtuoso. This is something we're meant to do together.

user-inactivated  ·  3414 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Copying is Not Theft

Ah yes, Nina Paley. I was wondering when she would make an appearance here.

    The mp3 is the digital equivalent of Jesus Christ's loaves and fishes, broken 5,000 times and still remaining entirely whole.

I have never heard that analogy before, but that is a brilliant comparison. Imagine the vendor of the original loaves and fish going, "Hey, Jesus! You can't do that, you're artificially inflating the food supply so that the original maker of the loaf didn't get his money for all of them! You're depriving poor breadmakers of their livelihood!"

user-inactivated  ·  3414 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    What if his album becomes popular enough that 1000 people would have paid $10 each to buy it, but instead 70% of them illegally download it? He's out $7k. That's a real hit. That's stealing bread out of his mouth.

    Miley can afford it, cW cannot. Where do you draw the distinction? When is it okay to steal it?

    It is stealing.

The traditional counterargument goes that nobody really has any idea how many people "would have bought" an album but pirated it instead, and that the consequences of piracy extend far beyond just a lost hypothetical sale. Would cW's album have become popular without 70% of people pirating it in the first place? That's the question that needs to be answered.

thenewgreen  ·  3414 days ago  ·  link  ·  

If he had a stack of CDs on a table, selling them on the street and someone stole 70% of them and set up a table 20 feet away, handing them out for free. Would we bother with the question of whether those that took the free cd would have purchased it or would we condemn the practice? I think the question is one of physicality. For some reason, something has to be able to be held in your hand or it doesn't count. It doesn't matter that it's the same group of songs, the same effort put forth to produce it. Somehow the digital version is okay to steal, in fact we are somehow debating whether it is even theft. It's irrational.

user-inactivated  ·  3414 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    I think the question is one of physicality. For some reason, something has to be able to be held in your hand or it doesn't count.

Yes, the question is completely one of physicality. Because physicality places a limit, and therefore a finitude, on supply. When you make a copy of something, you don't decrease the supply of the thing that the original vendor has; you've just created one of your own without taking one from the original vendor at all, regardless of whether you'd paid for it (buying) or not (stealing).

    It doesn't matter that it's the same group of songs, the same effort put forth to produce it.

Correct. But then again effort doesn't always correspond to marketability in the first place. People may just not listen to your music at all if you can't distribute it widely enough to the right people.

    Somehow the digital version is okay to steal, in fact we are somehow debating whether it is even theft. It's irrational.

A lot of the anti-anti-pirates would state the inverse, that's it's in fact irrational to equivocate piracy with physical theft.

wasoxygen  ·  3414 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    When you make a copy of something, you don't decrease the supply of the thing that the original vendor has
Clearly you increase the supply of the thing. An increase in supply reduces demand.

The vendor doesn't want to have inventory. The vendor wants compensation.

rob05c  ·  3414 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Clearly you increase the supply of the thing. An increase in supply reduces demand.

One of the better arguments I've heard for intellectual property.

But here's the issue I see: reducing demand isn't illegal or immoral. It's perfectly legal for me to tell a friend "Don't buy that CD, it's trash."

So, presuming copying is otherwise acceptable, why is it ok (legally/morally) for me to reduce demand by saying "don't buy that CD" but not ok for me to reduce demand by copying?

wasoxygen  ·  3413 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    reducing demand isn't illegal or immoral
Right, that's not the problem. The trespass is failing to pay someone who produced a work for sale.

This conversation was originally about whether the word "stealing" applies when the work is acquired by unauthorized duplication. I have come to think that piracy is different in enough particulars that using the word "stealing" to describe it gives people too much leeway to confuse the moral issue with semantic arguments and cartoon jingles. Copying is not Theft. Putting Merchandise in Your Pockets and Walking Out of Buildings is not Theft either.

    why is it ... not ok for me to reduce demand by copying?
In my view, it depends on the particulars. If a celebrity coins a clever Twitter hashtag that goes viral, I don't think they have grounds to complain about people copying their creation.

If you hire a wedding photographer, and they provide you with digital proofs so you can select prints, and instead you copy the files and make your own prints, you are in the wrong. You have clearly violated an agreement in a way that harms the photographer. It doesn't matter that you have only copied "information" in the form of data files. Almost everything can be conveyed as information.

Somewhere in between is downloading music. Most pirated music was created for commercial purposes. There is a contextual understanding that the producers create music for fans to enjoy in exchange for some kind of compensation. Failing to provide the compensation is a violation of that understanding. Identifying the parties subject to that understanding is murky. The fan auditing a new album before deciding whether to buy it is not the entrepreneur selling counterfeit CDs on the sidewalk. Radiohead is not Rachmaninov.

user-inactivated  ·  3414 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Clearly you increase the supply of the thing. An increase in supply reduces demand.

So you're saying it's the consumer's job to keep supply artificially low in order that demand can stay up?

And in any case, increasing supply is not something you'd associate with theft.

wasoxygen  ·  3414 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    So you're saying it's the consumer's job to keep supply artificially low in order that demand can stay up?
I mean to say that copying should not be construed as having no harmful effects, simply because the producer's inventory is not touched. A lost sale is a plausible effect.

The purpose of your post, I understand, is to determine if the word "stealing" can be fairly applied to piracy. You've convinced me that "stealing" is not a good term for this behavior. But I still think it is in many cases unethical.

To determine when it is wrong we would probably do well to take it on a case-by-case basis.

user-inactivated  ·  3414 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    The purpose of your post, I understand, is to determine if the word "stealing" can be fairly applied to piracy. You've convinced me that "stealing" is not a good term for this behavior. But I still think it is in many cases unethical.

That's fair. The discussion about the ethics of piracy is totally acceptable, but I just hate it when people try to spit moralizing platitudes about "stop trying to justify your stealing" in anybody's face who has an opinion to the contrary.