8bit- your sister hates Madoka because it's a nihilistic paean to disillusionment and the destruction of innocence wrapped in the flayed skin of Sailor Moon.

MM is darker than Akira. Darker than Ghost in the Shell. MM takes, as its fundamental core theme, that the universe runs on crushed dreams. And it does so without going bleak, without being obvious, without dwelling there in this painful Japanese shut-in self-referential crap world like... certain other popular Anime right now that suck.

Start from the credits:

Everything is a cutesy allegory to dire, dire shit that happens in the series:

- cutesy girl looking worried in a forest (as she contemplates the ultimate destruction of the universe)

- memories of the capers she had with her friends as her pet watches on (who are all dead, as the Demon of Negentropy watches on)

- lounging discouraged in bed (as the true weight of choosing to be a magical girl weighs on her)

- happy innocent frolicky sexy time in magical space (as Kyoko and Sayaka exercise their pact of mutual annihiliation)

- flashes of ancillary characters (who either die or are lost forever)

- running through the rain, late for something (the end of the world)

- eye opening on a "cat" (that is actually Satan)

It's a vaguely disquieting sequence even if you've never seen the show. It's bits of supposed normalcy that aren't quite right - just like the show.

Because that's the thing - it's a story about girls who try to do the right thing only to get fucked by the universe. None of them have a positive role model. That's the amazing thing about Madoka's mom - she's the worst role model in the world. Her positive contribution to Madoka's life is "always act as if you have a secret admirer" which, on the face of it, seems nice... but turns out to be emphasis for Homura's obsession which leads to the end of the world. The closest, clearest example of poor choices is during the storm - Junko catches Madoka sneaking out into a Class V hurricane and says "well, if it's in your heart, you better go."

The Magical Girls, for their part, look to Mami for guidance... even though Mami makes no bones about being lost and disillusioned. The advice she gives is, by and large, wrong - as demonstrated by her strategy and tactics that end up with her getting beheaded. So the girls turn to Kyubey, who is everything wrong with Djinn or Beelzebub. Even Homura, when giving advice to Madoka, advises her to "stop caring" - advice that she herself can't take, thus the Universe keeps looping back on itself.

It's a tricky, tricky show - they do everything we always tell beginning screenwriters not to do because they're so damn hard to pull off. An observer might be tempted to call Madoka a passive protagonist - in other words, a "hero" that never makes any active choices to advance the plot, instead having the plot thrust at her. It's the same mistake people make about Back to the Future, because Marty is constantly reacting rather than acting. However, the true protagonist of Madoka Magica is Homura - she drives every single story point -

- to the point where she's the antagonist as well. Kyubey is no more an antagonist than the tornado was in Twister. He's a force of nature. He offers a choice, nothing more, and he offers it with imperfect information. The true driver of everything negative in Madoka Magica is Homura, something that doesn't work without a massive perspective flip a la North by Northwest.

And that's where I was so utterly, completely sold. Giving the antagonist POV 3/4 of the way through a show is some of the most dangerous doubling down you can do in screenwriting and what they created was just a thing of pure beauty. Watching it through the second time was absolutely heartbreaking... because you know that the story is really about Homura and you watch the show through her eyes. You see all the fucked up choices that lead to destruction. You know that all the evidence for the shaft these girls are getting is right before their eyes. And all the weird shit that didn't hit you quite right the first time slaps you square in the face.

So you know the thing is on an endless loop. You know that you are watching the manifestation of Homura's unrealized dreams bring about the destruction of the city. You know that with each go-round, Homura faces a futile battle, growing stronger, more disillusioned, more disenchanted, more jaded. You know that she's going to turn into a witch. And you know that before she does, she pops out of the timeline and into another, leaving Wallpurgisnacht (clock gears and missiles in full effect) to destroy the world.

Homura never cleans up her mess. She bails to remake it bigger, badder, stronger, until even Kyubey is left going "what the fuck is so unholy powerful about this Madoka chick?"

Where things really get bleak for me is when you realize that even after Madoka brings about the literal destruction of all things, left to wander space and time alone as an abstract concept beyond thought or interaction, Homura remembers. And Homura still has the power to do it all over again.

So there's the true question: Who was Wallpurgisnacht originally? Because at some point, the loop started... Homura was weak and Mami lived long enough to train up Madoka and get killed by a Wallpurgisnacht that wasn't Homura.

But it could have been Homura from another universe because Homura is the only one who gets to cross timelines. Not even Kyubey can do that. It's all theoretical to his species, and they have control over fundamental forces like entropy.

I found the symbolism in the weapons to be icing on the cake:

- Madoka uses a bow, just like Artemis/Diana, the virgin goddess of the hunt. Madoka is purity.

- Mami uses a matchlock rifle, the international symbol of sportsmanship. Mami is fairness.

- Sayaka uses a sword, typically associated with purity.

- Kyoko uses a spear, either masculinity or nobility.

- Homura... Homura uses straight up bombs and det charges and missiles and grenades and other stuff that has nothing to do with symbolism.

Homura is a terrorist.

And that's where it all comes together for me: Madoka Magica is about the destruction of innocence. The protagonist (Homura) is working to preserve innocence. The antagonist (Homura) is willing to destroy that same innocence to preserve it. Homura is an innocent that, in the interests of doctrine, becomes radicalized to the point of callous violence.

And it does this with Magical Girls.

Anyway. I was blown away. Madoka Magica basically takes the lowest-effort form of media imaginable, throws every masters-level storytelling device at it and absolutely plants the dismount. It works at whatever level you want to get out of it. They could have been so obvious with it (as anime almost always is) but the subtleties and lyrical open-endedness of it were just stunning to me.

Lots of people think Inception is a great film. I think it's a ham-handed exercise in masturbation wherein Chris Nolan hits you over the head with how dark he is as he unsuccessfully remakes Dreamscape. Madoka Magica, on the other hand, is what Inception should have been - the filmmakers are using an innocent vehicle to demonstrate that innocence must die.

'cuz that's really where it's at: if Madoka had let Homura die, the universe would have continued unabated. Then, if Homura was willing to let Madoka die, that universe would have continued unabated. But since one good turn deserves another, and because we all fight for what we love, and because the preservation of innocence is one of the driving forces of civilization, we end up with war, jihad, ethnic cleansing and chemical weapons in Syria.

It's a hell of a show.

I watched the last five episodes yesterday (great timing!) and holy fuck I feel wrecked. Didn't expect that from the first few episodes, especially because this is only the third anime I have watched, after Spirited Away and Nausicaa (Pokemon doesnt count), and I had a bit of a difficult time getting used to all the squeaky high voices. But that's just personal.

One theme that I found interesting is about knowing yourself. Homura knew who she was and wasn't in the beginning, but slowly she lost herself, fading away as she redid the timelines. Madoka never knew who she wanted to be and kept looking for someone to tell her. Sayaka became more and more detached from herself after she realized her soul is in the gem and not in her body. In this regard only Mami Tomoe stayed true to herself and can be seen as a role model because of it.

I think Kyubey was the most antagonist-like, who caused most of the problems by not understanding mankind properly. She (it?) made some compelling arguments though.

What did you think of the opening credits? I didn't pay much attention to it. I'll rewatch it soon. I was more fascinated by the end credit song, whose lyrics can be interpreted differently after each episode it seemed. Really fantastic.

There were a lot of design elements that stood out, like the recurring teardrops / raindrops, the hair color & weapon choice of the characters and some more I'm forgetting.

I'm interested in the discussion here - I'm still not sure what I think of Madoka Magica.

Just a fun point, since I could hog the conversation forever and it would just be Klein and I going back and forth about this Anime forever.

My sister fucking hates Madoka. I thought that was hilarious. But it's also interesting because I don't feel any particular way for her, not like I do Homura, who I consider the "true" protagonist. I feel like Madoka had no personality throughout the show. She's an observer to all of the events that occur the show. It feels like she's already a concept, even before she goes full-on God-Mode.

All that being said, it made me wonder why Homura was so focused on saving Madoka. Like, she was cool, but not that cool! But it made sense. The first couple of times, it was because Homura was trying to save her friend. But after 30, 40, however many times she relived that week, Homura probably becomes obsessed, not with Madoka, but with what Madoka represents to her.

Fuck. This show is so good. Watch Rebellion, Klein, I neeeed you to.

Hog the conversation, yo. I got lots to say about this thing but it won't be today.

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1) Nope

2) Multiple witches

3) Homura

5) Urobutchering of idealism

6) I honestly think that it was the other way round. The designs and dialog were more of an afterthought to aid the storytelling.

7) Refer to 5.

Longer comment coming whenever.