I agree with your second to last paragraph. Hubski is going to find itself in the same boat that reddit is in, meaning, people don't think too much when using the up/down vote (in this case mute/ignore/hush). The entire Hubski system is predicated on people carefully considering when they choose to use these options. If reddit has taught us anything, it's that some people will, most people won't. I myself have already been muted because the user 'didn't like my tone'. I never insulted anyone, didn't attack a single person. I expressed my opinion in a tone the user didn't like (or so they say, who really knows). The other point is that there really isn't good discourse on Hubski. The 'culture of politeness', as you called it, doesn't really help with actual discourse, only the appearance of discourse. There's something to be said for being able to go at it in a discussion, provided neither party is openly attacking the other. These sorts of discussions cannot happen often on hubski (despite what a few will claim). They'll happen only when two people who have the proper restraint meet each other. The second one of them doesn't have the proper restraint, you have a potentially good discussion that's cut short. Hubski will devolve into something similar to reddit, just along different lines. Atleast on reddit I'm able to state my opinion without other users being able to simply click a link to shut me out of the entire discussion. For someone who actually values intellectual discourse, I'm here to tell you that hubski isn't what I look for. Reddit is more inline than hubski will ever be, for the reasons I layed out above. Reddit has it's issues, but atleast there you can be involved in actual discussions that don't involve both sides worrying about whether or not the other is simply going to remove their ability to be involved in the conversation.
For someone who can't spell "layed out" correctly, you can feel free to keep to reddit. Tell me this isn't good discourse. Or this or this? What is your definition of "good discourse"? Not to toot my own horn but you don't think this is a solid, intellectual discussion? In which case what the fuck are your parameters for good discourse? I see people disagreeing here. I see people presenting their opinions. I can find you that and more. It's easy. Considering I have already provided you some evidence to the contrary and can dig out more, give me some evidence that your statement is true. You know. Something that might mitigate what I've put forth. If Reddit is more to your tastes, then as I've told others: please - stay there. Also, it's "laid out," not "layed out." It's "its issues" not "it's." I don't think it's a common fear that someone will mute you just because you disagree with them on one point. "Mute" is not commonly used that way, especially as relationships build between users. there really isn't good discourse on Hubsk
There's something to be said for being able to go at it in a discussion, provided neither party is openly attacking the other. These sorts of discussions cannot happen often on hubski (despite what a few will claim).
_refugee_ tried to be passive aggressive and when it didn't result in the response he wanted he turned it into open aggression (and it still isn't going to result in the response he's looking for). He has every right to be a dick, just as I can choose not to respond to it. But I haven't muted him, nor will I, it hurts me every bit as much as him. He might actually have something constructive to say at some point.
What is amusing about this situation is that user seems to think that anyone who disagrees with someone else will immediately mute them instead of continuing the discussion at future points, and I have no intention of muting mreiland. What is even more amusing is that as that user has only submitted one post ever, muting me would have minimal effects anyway.
I used to mute people all of the time on Reddit if/when it was obvious that they were trolling/not being constructive, and advocated that others do the same (rather than engage them, which it seems they always did.) Unsurprisingly, that never caught on - people enjoy "engaging the troll" or arguing hardheadedly too much to consider their time spent wasted.
Conversely, I have come across users in the past that had contrasting views from mine, but that obviously cared enough about "the thing" they were talking about that they were able to present clear arguments illuminating their reasoning. I chose not to block these people, and regardless of whether I agreed or disagreed with them, our conversations were always constructive.
I guess my point is, some discussions are worth continuing, others are not. I look forward to seeing if the ability to mute here makes "muting the noise" in pursuit of meaningful discussion a more standard practice.
How are you zedadex? Nice to make your acquaintance. You have been a member of Hubski for 955 DAYS! and this is your first comment, that's amazing. I hope we hear more from you. Please let us know if the muting process helps you to filter out the noise. Cheers!
Another thought - it's kind of conversation derailing to focus on that (grammar). It doesn't really add anything to the conversation/s. It just seems like a passive aggressive form of trolling or dismissing any points that the person was trying to make. However, instead of trying to talk myself out of this site, I'm staying. Just tossing my two cents around this thread.
Why ya throwing chiterlings on folks. I don't think hubski has to be defended I think like Pintrest the tone will remain hubskish. It will fragment before it will go reddit.
Can you expand on why they cannot? That's a damning statement. I've seen discussions where politeness has been abandoned in lieu of point defense. Politeness is a form of restraint. I'm also concerned that your post is predicated on the actions of a single person in a single episode. In my experience, the persons here aren't the type to shut you out because of your tone unless it's needlessly coarse, aggressive, demeaning, and riddled with ad hominems.These sorts of discussions cannot happen often on hubski (despite what a few will claim).
For the same reason reddit became what it became. No matter how hard anyone on reddit tries, people are going to continue using up/downvotes to roughly mean "like/dislike" or "agree/disagree". ignore/mute/hush are a hell of a lot more powerful than a single like/dislike, and people are going to use them to simply mean "I don't want to hear your opinion anymore". And they already do. The reason those of you who have been here longer don't experience it to the level that the new people do is simply because you're dealing with people you're familiar with, and those people are less likely to mute you for your opinion than someone they are unfamiliar with. That's just how people work, but it's not an environment where a lot of good discussion can take place. As much as people complain about reddit, I've experienced more blatant censorship of my thoughts on this site than I ever have on reddit.
I do think the way mute functions has the potential to hurt discourse. We should not create functionality that allows one person to prevent someone from participating with everyone else. I think this is an attempt at passive moderation, and it will probably hurt the site. Not in a major way to the core group of Hubski (of which I don't include myself), but in a meaningful way. I have a feeling that it will eventually be changed or removed, but maybe not for another few influxes. But on the whole, I don't think it's going to prevent good discussion from taking place. If someone doesn't care for what you have to say, they're going to disregard you whether or not they have the site do it for them. I think you're right about the familiarity -- because of the way hubski interacts with itself, someone who does not come here with the social pleasantries of meeting someone for the first time is prone to be muted. I doubt this will be a permanent state as growth continues, and I don't think it dooms us to becoming reddit. Aside from mute, these things are less about Hubski and more about people. I don't think it's possible to create a website that forces good discussion by design. The key element to making it happen is the community, which is why the people here are generally on the defensive toward newcomers. But what's great about hubski is that they're dead set on trying to make it a reality. Even though you've had a relatively poor experience so far, the staff are willing to listen and consider the issues you bring up. I think you know it and that's why you're still here, as opposed to the majority of the reddit influx you came with.
It's also much harder to ingratiate yourself with people if they're too busy muting you and shutting you out of conversations, it's happened to me a few times already. So it sounds like it's a closed off community where the "new people" (like myself, a refugee from Reddit) are stuck wondering what the hell is going on when we can no longer reply or even interact with someone. Although I haven't had any experience with your very last point regarding censorship....
Also, the amount of "muting and ignoring" that is said to occur vs. what actually occurs is different. There are many people that never get muted/ignored -the VAST majority. If you're someone that does get muted/ignored often, perhaps the system is working and Hubski isn't for you. -Not saying this about you, I've enjoyed talking w you, but for those that are angry that they've been "censored," perhaps the community at large is telling them something? Perhaps the system is working perfectly for Hubski, just not for them. It's not for everybody. Edit: also, fwiw I too find it silly when people point out spelling/grammar errors in a debate or argument. But then, I have horrible spelling and grammar :)It's also much harder to ingratiate yourself with people if they're too busy muting you and shutting you out of conversations, it's happened to me a few times already. So it sounds like it's a closed off community
as someone that (I believe) personally welcomed you and has enjoyed some conversations with you, I'm curious if you can point me towards the places where you are being shut out of conversations. -not saying you weren't, it's just a curiosity. Thanks.
Yeah you did personally welcome me, and I appreciate that very much - conversations with you are always entertaining, how are you doing these days by the way? I'd buy you a beer but I don't know if you're anywhere near me... East Coast is all I'll say. You would know these things, and the "mutes" I was referring to were just one post like 7 or 8 days ago. So I don't remember exactly where it happened - I just saw it on my notifications one afternoon where was like so and so replied to your post and as I went to hit reply, it said "muted". Anyway I was just blowing smoke (something I seem good at these days).
I am good, thanks. I live in Chapel Hill NC and if you are in the neighborhood, beers would certainly be in order.
I live in the Tidewater region of Virginia so if you're ever up that way, PM me and we'll see if we can meet up around the beach or something at one of the bars on the strip or something. I mean sheez you're a lot closer to me than I thought. Google says ~3.5 hours.
Pm me who muted you I will take them out ;) Not like a date like the mafia.
Well the thing is, I don't remember who or why at this point I just thought it was kind of interesting. I had mentioned something re; the whole ignore/mute system to insomniasex 2 or 3 days into my being here (about a day after it happened) and it was explained pretty much the same way we're discussing it here. Something something beating a dead horse with a new user who's working out the kinks in his experience.
Maybe subconsciously but not that I can think of.
The quote is gone? From your mind? Dissatisfaction I was hoping I remembered something.
I've thought about your complaints about Hubski. Politeness can be an obstacle to meaningful discussion, but, on balance, I think rudeness is probably a worse one. Oddly enough, I like your tone -- I think. Part of the problem with discussion sites in general is the same problem I have noticed in email. The tone is very much up to the emotional state of the reader. Things that ought not to be heated arguments easily get that way because one of the parties is just especially paranoid that day. Not that some things aren't worth heated arguments. I have thought too, as white alluded to below, that maybe the casual muter is not worth worrying about anyway. Though it is hard not to. We're probably hardwired that way.
A lot of this has sprung up because of the conversation about auto-ignoring anyone who has been on the site less than X days. The muting is the worst part of it, but it's all a part of a bigger issue. Also a big part of the disconnect is, again, people who have been here longer don't get treated the same way. You're a lot less likely to get muted for an opinion if you're here for a while. The idealism that is Hubski assumes people are going to consider people based upon their behavior, but that isn't really what happens. Your comment about my tone. I tend towards blunt observations. I don't insult people, ad hominems are not something I have a tendency to do, and I certainly don't treat people like they're less. But if I have an opinion, I'm going to tell you what that opinion is. If I think your thought process is flawed, I'm going to point that out as well. If I think you're approaching something in a way that can be improved, I'll say something to that effect. It isn't an attack, it's simply my opinion. This is exactly what I did to one person who muted me. I pointed out that racism is a challenge to work through, and not an excuse for failing. When racism is the most important thing in your life, all challenges become racism, and it stops being your fault you failed (I myself am an older minority). I not only got muted for that opinion, I got locked out of the entire conversation for it. That shouldn't happen, and Hubski is less for it.
Exactly! There are some privileged members of the old guard, in part because of the way the site is constructed. If you want your posts to be seen, it pays to cultivate the favor of people with huge followings. Some of the elders are very decent people. Some of them are narrow-minded egotists. Why should this be any different from the rest of world? Maybe it should -- but it isn't. I still think you overreached a little in your rhetoric, but you did hit a nerve. You have, it appears, the same view of racism that I have. I find that very refreshing. It both amuses me and disgusts me that, by some people's standards, I'm probably a racist. In other words, I don't think "that offends me!" - constitutes a knockdown argument. If a person dislikes your genetics, they're a racist. If they don't want to surrender to your culture -- that is quite another matter. I think we share common minority status -- we're skeptics.