a thoughtful web.
Good ideas and conversation. No ads, no tracking.   Login or Take a Tour!
comment by Meriadoc
Meriadoc  ·  3803 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: English Has a New Preposition, Because Internet

Well, not to be pugilistic, but pretty much all of the english language is a long series of bastardizations.





user-inactivated  ·  3803 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Show me a time that it's happened as quickly as it does now.

sounds_sound  ·  3803 days ago  ·  link  ·  
user-inactivated  ·  3803 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Shakespeare might be competition, but a list of words he invented doesn't help anything, because some of them were never seen again, some took a hundred years to become mainstream, etc.

Putting aside the debate as to whether a phrase Shakespeare came up with should even be mentioned in the same conversation as "because internet."

sounds_sound  ·  3803 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Respectfully, I don't see much difference. His change of the word upstairs for example is slight, but if you were use to hearing it only one way for all of your life, and then heard it as an adjective, it might seem jarring at first. These are not parallel examples, I know.

I think making because a preposition is a fairly seamless move. It reminds me of the French word chez (as I understand it). I could say "at Fatburger" : "chez Fatburger", but I could also say "at the doctor's" : also just "chez médecin". It cuts off the le because it's completely unnecessary. Someone can correct me if I got that wrong, but perhaps the intent is still there.

user-inactivated  ·  3802 days ago  ·  link  ·  

It's seamless, yeah -- since it's not a huge deal. The problem is that a lot of internet speak is horrible and you can never tell quite what's gonna catch on. Good example there with chez though.

I was thinking about this earlier and thought of a truly awful one but I seem to have forgotten it.

GoldStarBrother  ·  3803 days ago  ·  link  ·  

What's better about the old version of English, without the bastardizations?

humanodon  ·  3803 days ago  ·  link  ·  

The Norman Invasion comes to mind

user-inactivated  ·  3803 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Definitely, anytime two cultures with different languages come in contact. What makes this sad is that we're doing it to ourselves.

humanodon  ·  3803 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    What makes this sad is that we're doing it to ourselves.

I don't know that I would characterize it as "sad" exactly, but it does seem like it's a late-coming counterpart to what has been happening in various professional fields. I mean, how many times have you seen a sitcom where a character is speaking to a doctor and says "in English please?" The English spoken between politicians or between politicians and the public, is another good example of what I'm referring to. Of course, those developments in language occurred to more easily communicate complex or lengthy ideas between people who have similar bases in knowledge, but the fact is, that they've developed enough that an outsider may have little understanding of what's happening.

One might argue that this is a feature of many languages and to an extent, that's true. But, English is a bit different due to its history as a language that has often gone through permutations among professional circles as well as regional circles and class circles, on such an international scale (not to mention such a great number of non-native speakers, including immigrants). When coupled with the facility that one is able to create new words (which comes from the Germanic influences most predominantly) and the fact that there are so many homophones and homonyms, we have a bewilderingly complex language that of course will continue to adapt in strange ways when presented with opportunities to do so.

user-inactivated  ·  3802 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    One might argue that this is a feature of many languages and to an extent, that's true. But, English is a bit different due to its history as a language that has often gone through permutations among professional circles as well as regional circles and class circles, on such an international scale

So, what -- you're saying I guess that it's now evolving in internet circles as just another facet of the language? Fair enough, but what I was talking about, and sadly everyone who has replied to me has been niggling, was that the way people type and talk on the internet has been leaking into speech (so out of 'internet circles') for about 10-15 years now. People use memes in conversation, people use phrases popularized on the internet within the last decade in normal conversation without a trace of irony. Mostly as shortcuts, or internal references with loaded meaning. I'm not a linguist unfortunately, but I'm pretty sure the speed of this, absent an obvious external source, is relatively unprecedented. Shakespeare's time was one of paramount upheaval for the English language and it still wouldn't have approached this scale at all -- surely.

So that's my reply to everyone in the thread. Cheers.

humanodon  ·  3802 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I don't know the name for what you're describing, but it has been happening throughout history, notably with the rise of comic books.

I still don't get why speed is such a concern though. The speed of the internet is unprecedented and so are changes that occur within it and manifest themselves in the real world. Like bitcoin.

user-inactivated  ·  3802 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I had a feeling that article was going to be about onomatopoeia (<-- is that a plural and a singular word at once?) and comic oaths -- but it doesn't strike me as immediately relevant, mostly because no one actually says 'cripes' who wants to be taken seriously. (People who say 'lol' -- like that -- out loud, of which there are many -- do they expect to be taken seriously?)

    I still don't get why speed is such a concern though. The speed of the internet is unprecedented and so are changes that occur within it and manifest themselves in the real world. Like bitcoin.

It's not ... I mean, of course the speed doesn't matter, it's whether the changes are any good or not. Fuck, if you want people to walk around saying 'lol' out loud or whatever, then I guess we just take polar opposite opinions here.

humanodon  ·  3802 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I'm not saying I want them to, but I don't hear people saying these things in serious contexts, more as a way of being kind of cutesy. If it starts to become used extensively in high level contexts, like for example, if the CEO of a huge tech company responded to a criticism with something like, "because money, lol" then yeah, I'd be shitting it.

user-inactivated  ·  3802 days ago  ·  link  ·  

At which point it will be too late! If middle and high school students are using these words nonironically, then the CEOs will be in 40 years.

humanodon  ·  3801 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Well, then it's probably already too late. Nothing to do about it except start laying the foundations for the next change.

user-inactivated  ·  3801 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Some days I only talk in references.

humanodon  ·  3801 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Oh, I'm afraid it will have to be something other than that. People already do that and have been doing it for so many generations that often people don't realize that they are doing it, or what they are saying originally referenced.

user-inactivated  ·  3801 days ago  ·  link  ·  

How about where we ended up in Cloud Atlas

Meriadoc  ·  3803 days ago  ·  link  ·  

More than likely not, but I'm certainly no expert. I do know that things changed extremely quickly in the late 16th or 17th century as well, however.