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comment by mk
mk  ·  3695 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Carbon Crash, Solar Dawn

    The utility death spiral is a great example of system complexity that is simple to understand. Solar energy costs have plummeted – so far that in most places you can get electricity cheaper from your own solar panels than you can from a utility. The impact on the grid of people doing so at scale is to lower the overall cost of electricity generation by reducing both peak demand (and so peak pricing) and lowering volume. Utilities are then stuck with expensive physical assets, less sales and lower margins, so they need to increase either the cost per unit of power or impose grid connection charges to customers. But doing either gives customers more motivation to leave the utility – thus the death spiral.

I was in Maui last month, and was stunned to see that at least half of the residential rooftops had solar panels. Fossil fuels take an expensive route to Hawaii, so I strongly suspect they are a leading indicator. I flew into Phoenix last fall, and saw that less than 10% of the roofs had panels.





b_b  ·  3695 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Right now I'm debating whether to buy or build. One of the great advantages of building is being able to control the way in which your house uses energy (to some extent, anyway). I would build the shit out of the most efficient house possible, and I think it would be a ton of fun doing it. Unfortunately, solar panels aren't as great in MI as HI, but I still think they'd be well worth installing.

wasoxygen  ·  3695 days ago  ·  link  ·  

David JC MacKay described his struggle to improve the energy efficiency of his 1940's era semi-detached house, with a history of his gas usage.

He did quite well, but concluded that you get better results when you build with energy efficiency in mind, as did energy consultant Alan Foster.

MacKay's book on sustainable energy is highly recommended, and available on the web site and as a free PDF.

b_b  ·  3695 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Wow! Thanks! Guess I got some reading to do.

Although, of course the finance of it runs deeper than energy efficiency, as it seems quite a bit cheaper per square foot to buy a preexisting home. But on the other hand, there's probably some non-quantifiable benefit to designing a home from scratch. Also, finding a suitable piece of property that doesn't already have a home isn't so easy, either.

mk  ·  3695 days ago  ·  link  ·  

If you go with both solar and geothermal in MI, you can pretty much leave the grid.

b_b  ·  3695 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I suppose in that case, you could install electric heating and appliances, and then you'd really be onto something. Right now, my combined energy bill is about $200/mo in the winter and summer, and about half that in the spring and fall. Are solar and geo typically amortized over the life of the mortgage? If so, I could definitely see it being at least price neutral.

mk  ·  3694 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I recall reading that solar can be part of the mortgage, but I'm not sure where I read it, or how common it is. I haven't heard the same for geothermal.

kleinbl00  ·  3695 days ago  ·  link  ·  

They're starting to pop up more and more in SoCal. Every Home Depot has a ThinkSolar vendor in it. Two of my friends have solar leases on their houses.

Me? I live in an apartment.

veen  ·  3695 days ago  ·  link  ·  

It's weird, you'd think that the US would be leading with its combination of a powerful economy and lots of sun hours:

Solar panels are more popular here than ever, even after the subsidies stopped two years ago. My parents are moving to the countryside and using part of the financing specifically for solar panels. They'll earn back the money in 10 years, at worst, and 5 years in optimal conditions. Every kilowatt from there on is free.

kleinbl00  ·  3695 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Cheap, cheap, cheap cheap cheep energy in the US. Solar? Solar we pay the same as you.

What's gas cost per liter where you're at? I'll bet it's a factor of three or four more than it is here. I'll bet heating oil and electricity are similarly expensive. I pay less than a euro per liter for super unleaded and eight cents per kilowatt hour. Hard to incentivize renewable energy when dinosaur blood costs so little.

veen  ·  3695 days ago  ·  link  ·  

You bet yo' ass it's expensive here. I looked it up: the price at the nearest gas station is 1,65 euro ($2,28) per liter, and $0.96 per liter in the US according to Wolfram. Not that it's more expensive to make or to haul over here: the difference is all in taxes.

Here's a Dutch news article which says that regardless of the oil price, the petrol tax is 72 cents, there's an additional levy and on top of that there's 19% regular VAT.

kleinbl00  ·  3695 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Actually, damn. Right here it's $1.12 per liter. Will wonders never cease? Funny thing is I can walk to an oil well, and I ride my bike past a refinery multiple times per week.

veen  ·  3695 days ago  ·  link  ·  

On the positive side, due to high fuel prices, public transport is a really viable option. It's about the same price per kilometer, but not having to pay off a vehicle and pay insurance makes it an economically more viable option. And money from the fuel tax can be poured into public transportation, which drives more people into trains and buses.

kleinbl00  ·  3695 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Public transport is actually stupid cheap in most of the US, too... it's just slllllllllowwwwwwwwww.

I used to take the bus to college. If the price of the bus pass wasn't rolled into my tuition, it would have been three bucks a day for sixteen miles. On that route, it took about as long as driving and had the distinct advantage of dropping me off in campus, as opposed to the $8/day parking a quarter mile away.

Same bus route went to a club I mixed at, too. Even followed the same route. Difference being the bus got there in an hour and a half. I could drive it in 20 minutes.

Things get really stupid in LA - if you're on one of the subway lines you're golden. I could make it the six miles from North Hollywood to Hollywood and Vine faster than I could in a goddamn helicopter for $1.75. And while I could make it from the Long Beach Airport to NoHo for $4... it'd take three and a half hours.

mk  ·  3695 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Two of my friends have solar leases on their houses.

I'm going to look into it. We have a few on our block. I've read that on new construction it is often less costly overall to include the solar lease in the mortgage. If that is true, that seems like a tipping point.