a thoughtful web.
Good ideas and conversation. No ads, no tracking.   Login or Take a Tour!
comment by kleinbl00
kleinbl00  ·  2766 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Why Donald Trump may have won the first Presidential Debate

There are some... very strange assertions in your article, Mr. Marks.

    When it comes to strategic messaging, most political debates involve all of the participants sending the same underlying message: “I am the best candidate for the job.” Because these messages are mutually exclusive – after all, they can’t all be the best person for the job – one candidate’s deliberate messaging is not likely to reinforce or support the underlying message of their opponent(s). Everybody is playing the same game, and the winner is determined by who avoids making the most mistakes while scoring the most points.

Your argument, then, is that the winning strategy for political office is to play up one's unsuitability for public office. I'm not going to dismiss that out of hand, but it's not a statement that should be accepted at face value. Do you have examples of other protest candidates that have used this strategy effectively?

    In a lot of ways, Trump’s message changes the rules of the game, and renders a lot of admissions that would be crippling in the hands of a career politician into strengths.

This is an assertion, not an argument. Trump's unfavorability ratings are, if I'm not mistaken, the highest of anyone who has ever run for high office. In Trump's own words, his base is solid - he could famously "shoot someone on the street" and not lose support. But as Ezra Klein pointed out last night, Trump needs to gain voters in order to win the election, not simply prevent their loss.

    Or, put another way, in the process of presenting her underlying strategic message, she was reinforcing Trump’s as well.

I consider myself fairly well-versed on the platforms of both candidates and I would characterize Trump's "strategic message" as "incoherent." Here, Trump is explaining his tax policy:

    They are going to expand their companies and do a tremendous job. I'm getting rid of the great thing for the wealthy, it's a great thing for the middle class and for companies to expand and when these people are going to put billions and billions of dollars into companies and when they are going to bring $2.5 trillion back from overseas where they can't bring the money back because politicians like Secretary Clinton won't allow them to bring the money back because the taxes are so onerous and the bureaucratic red tape, it's so bad.

"They are going to expand their companies and do a tremendous job. I'm getting rid of the great thing for the wealthy..."

It's been observed over and over again that debates aren't about message, they're about sentiment and the only time Trump managed to convey a coherent sentiment was when he pledged to release his tax returns if Clinton released 33,000 emails. But then Clinton said, effectively, "oopsie about the emails" and Trump stood there flat-footed and silent.

If you are already a Trump supporter, I can see how the debates last night might hit a few happy spots for you. But if you're on the fence, there was no meat whatsoever from the Trump camp to entice you over. Your words:

    The second, and probably better approach (and the approach that would likely have been taken were this a Canadian debate), would be to present Trump as the irresponsible buffoon – after all, people like the roguish and wily outsider, while they detest the blowhard idiot who just makes things worse.

Trump's words:

    I have a son. He's 10 years old. He has computers. He is so good with these computers, it's unbelievable. The security aspect of cyber is very, very tough. And maybe it's hardly doable. But I will say, we are not doing the job we should be doing, but that's true throughout our whole governmental society. We have so many things that we have to do better, Lester, and certainly cyber is one of them.

That's not the statement of a world leader. That's "series of tubes" bad. That's "an Internet was sent by my staff at 10 o'clock in the morning on Friday" bad. I will agree that one can triangulate one's way to a Trump victory out of that performance... but one would have to be firmly there already.





thundara  ·  2766 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I only caught the middle of the debate between flying in late and collapsing from jetlag. But it still seems to me that the author is discussing the wrong argument...

    When it comes to strategic messaging, most political debates involve all of the participants sending the same underlying message: “I am the best candidate for the job.” Because these messages are mutually exclusive – after all, they can’t all be the best person for the job – one candidate’s deliberate messaging is not likely to reinforce or support the underlying message of their opponent(s). Everybody is playing the same game, and the winner is determined by who avoids making the most mistakes while scoring the most points.

    Your argument, then, is that the winning strategy for political office is to play up one's unsuitability for public office. I'm not going to dismiss that out of hand, but it's not a statement that should be accepted at face value. Do you have examples of other protest candidates that have used this strategy effectively?

The argument both are arguing over is "the established system will continue to improve the country".

Hillary aligns herself with Obama, talks about the grounds they've covered already, and pushes for further reforms. Unemployment and crime are down. She gives examples of mental health, prison, and college policy changes that will patch present problems without axing entire departments, firing half of Washington, etc.

Trump criticizes her and Obama's contributions to the present problems and tries to convince people that The Status Quo is Fucked. It doesn't matter if he's still working out his plan because anyone's hands are better than those who brought about the War in Iraq, crime wave in Chicago, ISIS & terror attacks, gov't corruption etc.

In this argument, Hillary wins by convincing people that the US is better off than it was in 2008. And by pointing to the specific actions she took to improving <insert metric relevant to topic here>.

Trump wins by convincing people that the Iraq / Afghan surge, free college, Obamacare, The Recovery Act aren't worth the debt they put us in. That they don't work and we should consider <tarriffs

    tax changes
deregulation|pro-business initiatives> instead. He wins by aligning Hillary/Obama with any and all failed 2000-2016 policies and finding underlings in other areas of the gov't who wanted their bosses to Do Things DIfferent.

My opinion is that the racist housing, racial profiling, etc, aren't going to win over the voters who are still on the fence or thinking about 3rd party. At this point, it feels to me like the Bigot angle is just a well-beaten horse, rhetorically speaking.

kleinbl00  ·  2765 days ago  ·  link  ·  

The fundamental issue is this:

Supporters of Hillary Clinton feel they have benefitted under the past 30 years of geopolitics.

Supporters of Donald Trump feel they have suffered under the past 30 years of geopolitics.

Clinton's very real problem is that undereducated white people over 40 have been fucked in the past 40 years and do not understand the nuance and complexity of why.

Trump's very real advantage is that those same people are willing to believe there are simple solutions that are being withheld from them because they've been forgotten by establishment politics.

b_b  ·  2766 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Sometimes his statements read like Apple predictive text when you just keep hitting the middle word to see what comes out.

kleinbl00  ·  2766 days ago  ·  link  ·  

user-inactivated  ·  2766 days ago  ·  link  ·