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comment by thundara
thundara  ·  1805 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: What do you think of Dr Jill Stein and The Green Party?

    Dr Jill Stein explains how to abolish student debt.

"We bailed out the guys on Wall Street" ... who paid us back. "QE will save us" ... well ...:

    This is wrong. Flat wrong. Quantitative easing was an unconventional monetary policy tool the Federal Reserve used to try and revive the economy after the financial crisis once it had emptied its normal bag of tricks. There have been vigorous debates about whether it was wise, or whether it worked. But it did not involve buying and canceling debt owed by the banks. Quite the opposite—it involved buying and holding onto debts owned by the banks (or other investors, for that matter), such as Treasury bonds and mortgage-backed securities.

    This might sound like a small distinction if you're not a monetary policy obsessive. But it's absolutely essential to understanding what the Fed was doing, and the rationale behind it. (Among other things, holding onto the debts, rather than canceling them, was a key part of how the Fed planned to contain inflation down the line.) Stein's description is so far off, it's as if someone asked Stein how to play basketball, and she answered that teams scored points by kicking the ball off the backboard.

I'm not going to pretend I'm an economic expert, but that entire interview seemed like a hand-wavy: "they got their's, why can't we get ours" without much attention to the risks and complications involved in these interventions.

    Europe has always had GM labelling and food didn't get more expensive.

Yeah, because GM food is effectively non-existent in the EU. Estimates that include only the cost of generating labels put the change at $2/year. Estimates that include the cost of restructuring the US's food processing pipeline to track GM crops from start to finish put the change at $800/year.

    Those studies are 90-110 days long. Is that long term?!

The animal studies go up to two years, which is quite long term in the field of toxicology. The trouble with doing multi-year nutritional studies in humans is that it's insanely expensive and challenging to run a controlled trial with a large group of people on that diet for that long. The sane solution is to examine animal and epidemiological data, and use prior knowledge to hone in on diseases or populations you may believe are at risk.

See... (Can't copy-paste, so pages 138, 143, 147, 154)

And on and on... All evidence points to glyphosate / RoundUp being safer than previously used herbicides, and Cry / Bt toxin being safer than other insectides.

    How about the revolving door I mentioned before, that doesn't bother you?

It's not ideal, but you'd be hard pressed to find people knowledgeable enough for those positions who haven't had some involvement with the industry during their career. Have you known anyone to go directly into the FDA right out of college and stay there for the rest of their life?

    How about patenting of living organisms?

RoundUp crop patents started expiring last year. I have no issue with a company patenting a genetically engineered organism or a process to make or use one. Farmers are free to choose what they see as advantageous, and patents open up trade secrets and encourage new developments.

    If you care so much about the farmers why make them buy the seed every year?

We've literally had this exact same conversation before. Check out hybrid vigor if you need a refresher.

    the last 2 decades of GMO consumption does not constitute as proof of their safety

(1) There's no such thing as proof in science, only evidence supporting or rejecting a hypothesis; (2) that's pretty decent evidence supporting their safety when combined with other methodology; (3) the entire point of your link is that GM is a category of technology, and as such each product should be evaluated individually, but in every one of these discussions that we have, you simply argue against GMOs as a whole.

Read up on Bt. Read up on RoundUp. Read up on PPO-less apples and PRSV-resistant papayas. Read up on the farming practices each and encourage and each replace. It might change your perspective. But my mini-essays sure don't feel they're doing anything. So I'm going to stop trying after this.





organicAnt  ·  1805 days ago  ·  link  ·  

It's obvious that we hold completely opposite views not just on bio-tech but on how society should be organised as a whole.

So far you seem to support:

1) Bailing banks but not bailing people

2) Executives holding positions with a conflict of interest

3) Privatisation of life by profit driven corporations

4) No accountability for said profit driven corporations

5) Centralization of food production by a handful of biotech corporations

6) No consumer choice when it comes to know what we're buying

May I ask, what would the perfect society look like to you? Because to me it sounds like fascism.

thundara  ·  1804 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  

You are being ridiculous. Please stop mischaracterizing what I say. You clearly have no idea about any of my views or philosophies. Notice how instead of refuting any of my points, you simply went into an attack on my character as a whole.

I have a BS in Biochemistry. I am working towards a PhD in bioengineering. This does not make me a fascist biotechnology dictator. It does not make me an agricultural shill. It does make me more qualified to talk about this topic than you.

You're argument all along has been that GMOs are unsafe and should be banned. I have refuted that point several times, giving you several examples of evidence to the contrary. I have pointed out that the only evidence showing GMOs are unsafe has come from scientific hacks. I have pointed out that there is no correlation between the introduction of GMOs into a country and the markers of that country's health.

Do you know what labels I am perfectly fine with?

I used to manage food for a house of 60 hippies. I'd buy all of the above. I support opt-in labels driven by consumer desire. I support farmers choosing the stock of seeds amenable to their practice. But I don't support the FUD you bring to this discussion.

So I'm blocking you. Good day.

goobster  ·  1804 days ago  ·  link  ·  

We are all laughing at organicArt. You did good work here, thundara.

I just don't have the patience any more to argue with dimwits who equate "science" with "scary", and "dogma" with "evidence".

...stands and applauds thundara as she exits the arena...

tacocat  ·  1803 days ago  ·  link  ·  

My favorite badges are intellectual beatdown badges