a thoughtful web.
Good ideas and conversation. No ads, no tracking.   Login or Take a Tour!
comment by artis
artis  ·  3458 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: VPN - To use or not to use, that's the question

    If you don't have to pay for a product, you are the product being sold.

I think this line needs to be entirely retired from serious discussion. It's a gross simplification that relies on emotional manipulation (you're slave!) and does nothing to actually inform anyone.

First off there's nothing preventing (most) companies you pay from tapping into the same revenue streams as companies you don't pay. Outside of technical protectiona you usually just have a EULA with unilateral change provisions with all the protections, or lack thereof, that entails.

Fact ia that there are different business methods that are used to monetize free services. Selling your time and attention to advertisers is quite different from selling your location history. And as repugnant as the later may be it is still not selling you, it is selling information about you.

So yeah, question free services but question paid services and be upfront about why you question them. If you don't know how they make money, say you don't know. If you do know, share the details.





querx  ·  3458 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I never trusted paid services more than free ones. I never said that paying for a VPN service is far better than using the free stream. I just said:

    The only real difference is that paying users (and their data of course) are less likely to be exposed/sold to some other corporate entities. That's all.
Into that you can count being exposed to advertisements (which can be annoying) or your data (history, identity) is being sold to other 3rd party companies (which isn't less annoying than the first option). And of course, there is never a guarantee how your case will be handled in their system - even if you pay you aren't necessarily completely secure and/or anonymous. But with a paid service you statistically seen can get slightly more chances to being not exposed.

So seen, it's completely irrelevant how a service provider (paid or free of charge) makes money, if you generally distrust them. No, to answer the request, I don't know their exact business model. But do you honestly think that they will show me their exact, real plans for how to dealing with money income? I think not. Because it's simple not lucrative enough for such companies in such a difficult and established market, to be completely honest with the end user. It's sad. But also reading the EULA won't change it much.

And as it seems, those service providers who tried to provide a completely free VPN service and/or nearly-complete anonymous, failed because they couldn't sustain with running the servers anymore and were in need to shut down - because complete comfort (no ads, no data exposure, really free) for the user, is (generally) a disaster for the company that pays the bills for keeping the system running. Or they're still running but can't provide the same comfort that an average (average privacy concerned) person demands.

I agree, maybe the quote is really a bit of a gross simplification but it's not like getting a (free or paid) newspaper with ads inside - when you read such a paper, you are a passive part of the money scheme (you can go for the ad and buy a thing or simply ignore it - because you hold the paper in your hands); but when you're using a VPN service (free or paid), you are the active part of the scheme (you directly interact with the providers goods and use them).

artis  ·  3458 days ago  ·  link  ·  

None of this makes you the product. Which was my main point.

    But with a paid service you statistically seen can get slightly more chances to being not exposed.

    But do you honestly think that they will show me their exact, real plans for how to dealing with money income?

Those are both much more to the point. You can say "you are the product" or you can say "I don't know how they make money and it makes me suspicious".

Even then, if you don't know that your payment at least covers the costs of the service you're likely no better off by paying and risk exposing payment information.

Hell, I'd argue that a proxy service that makes $10 by showing you ads is safer than one that charges you $5. That's the kind of nuance that goes straight out of the window when free services are not so subtly compared to slavery.

querx  ·  3458 days ago  ·  link  ·  

We can say, what we want to say. It's free speech.

And I agree, putting an Anonymous quote was controversial. I also agree, that maybe you're not the product directly; but does not knowing about being the product is the same as simply not being the product? For me, it's safer to assume that all companies are exposing data (even that there may be providers who doesn't) - it's safer to assume that I'm the product in each and every case, than to give my trust to someone I don't know a bit and to rely on "facts" a corporation is providing me.

artis  ·  3457 days ago  ·  link  ·  

You're the product when you're in the middle of a marketplace. That's the one case where you, not something of yours, is on sale.

It is very good to know what of yours a company has that can be monetized. For a proxy, browsing data is straightforward. They have it regardless of how much you pay them. It doesn't stop being product just because they also happen to sell proxy services, just that if they make enough money selling proxy services they don't have to sell it to stay afloat.

The false dillema presented by "paying or product" is another good reason to use the phrase. If you are paying the company you are merely aware of one of the products they sell.

> it's safer to assume that I'm the product in each and every case, than to give my trust to someone I don't know a bit and to rely on "facts" a corporation is providing me.

Is paying someone to not sell your info not trust?

My bottom line with proxies is that they simply aren't a privacy tool. They can help but shouldn't be relied upon. Trying to figure out what the product is just obacures that proxies by their very nature have a lot of info on you.

querx  ·  3457 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    You're the product when you're in the middle of a marketplace. That's the one case where you, not something of yours, is on sale.
I think I don't understand - by speaking of VPNs, your identity is you. The 'data' I'm speaking of is the bundle of your preferences, your habits, your activity, your motive, etc. = your identity. Identities are the (new) currency of the (new) world.

As I think, for the companies it's pretty important, that I am the middle of the(ir) marketplace. For them I'm/my identity is a possible product, something that somebody else will buy from them. Whoever gets the most of my identity first, makes the most profit. Simple as that.

And no, for me paying someone, just for the plain reason, that (s)he will not sell/expose my data, is not a sign of trust and I also consider it as a stupid action. But that's my opinion.

Stopping (or at least believing them to stop) selling my data away shouldn't be anything I should buy. It should be taken for granted. But it's not. Because not selling data away isn't as lucrative as doing it.

Agreed with last point. Proxies aren't made for privacy. Handy but not even near to privacy.