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comment by kleinbl00
kleinbl00  ·  4010 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: The Columbia Rescue Mission

So here's the reality of the situation: The NRO has a budget of about 33 billion dollars. 15 of that is black and difficult to discern. 18 of that is public and subject to the bread and circuses necessary to convince America that "space exploration" is worth the cost of maintaining a rocket fleet. You know this 18 billion as "NASA."

Sputnik provided Eisenhower with the impetus he needed to use spy satellites instead of U-2 flights (highly recommended if you can find it). The Mercury and Gemini program were, in many ways, cover for the Manned Orbiting Laboratory... and the absolutely stultifying number of Corona launches.

The only reason the Space Shuttle exists is for the KH-9. The NRO was adamantly opposed to the space shuttle - its erstwhile main customer - because they'd have to redesign all their satellites to sit sideways. However, Hans Mark performed a complete 180 turnaround while head of the NRO and said "if you're going to build it, it must be big enough to be useful" - the NRO's proposal for the shuttle was 40% larger than NASA's civilian wing.

People forget that the NRO built a military launch pad for the Shuttle out at Vandenberg. People forget that between '82 and '92, fully a quarter of the Shuttle's payloads were classified military missions. And people forget that when the Challenger exploded, it left the NRO without any heavy launch platform right in the middle of Reagan/Gorbachev SDI paranoia - thus the development of the Delta IV Heavy, the rocket the NRO had wanted since 1971.

And once they had their big rocket, they didn't need a shuttle any more. There's a reason NASA kept trying to kill the shuttle - one of their main customers and, frankly, their raison d'etre didn't need it any more. So the budget NASA is left with is the budget that can actually defend itself - unmanned science and things academia will help pay for.

The shuttle was never a good idea, and it was pushed well past its useful life in pursuit of civilian payloads that only exist as pork barrel (lookin' at you, ISS). I watched the Columbia launch live; I watched it come down live. I'm a big fan of manned spaceflight. But at the same time, I recognize that the shuttle was irrelevant the minute it rolled onto the hangar and that the Columbia and Challenger deaths were, in many ways, about keeping up appearances.





am_Unition  ·  4009 days ago  ·  link  ·  

First, thank you for your well-researched response, complete with hyperlinks. The actual story of America's space program is certainly different from what's "common knowledge".

My own opinions of these "defense" projects is rather muddled. They have contributed to America's current (but dwindling) status as chief superpower of Earth, and laid down the roots for future successes, many of which we all benefit from technological spin-offs of today, but also contributed to the ramping up of tension between the U.S. and the U.S.S.R. I wasn't alive during the cold war, but this doesn't excuse my current ignorance on the subject.

Sadly, one of the best documentaries that I've seen on the subject is "The Right Stuff", released in 1983, years before declassifcation of these projects. The movie even comes off as a clever bit of pro-American propaganda... not that I mean to belittle the commendable achievements made by our early manned spaceflight programs. At present, it seems so distant into the past that no one gives a damn what happened 30+ years ago, regardless of how dependent America's current space prowess is upon these once cryptic military programs.

The (necessary?) interplay between military and scientific achievement will continue to frustrate me, of that I can assure you. It's just too complicated, with too many smokescreens and politics. If only we could all just lay down our weapons, come together as a species, and focus on progress...

Brb, getting labeled as a commie.

kleinbl00  ·  4009 days ago  ·  link  ·  

So The Right Stuff is TOTALLY not a documentary. Tom Wolfe's book was fast'n'loose with the truth, and the movie is fast'n'loose with the book.

Watch "Astrospies" as linked above. It'll take you an hour. You have to keep in mind that the whole thing is a sleight of hand - civilian space programs are all about military space programs and always have been. William E Burroughs wrote a great book on the NRO and its impact on foreign policy years before the NRO's very existence was declassified - when he was interviewing Hans Mark about a hypothetical NRO, he was interviewing the guy in charge. It's fun to read these days because everything discussed in it now has a wikipedia page... but the perspective is still a virtually unknown one.

I was not only alive during the Cold War, I was living in Los Alamos, NM. I'm well aware that my opinion (and perspective) is definitely in the minority.

You're new here. This link may be relevant to your interests.

am_Unition  ·  4008 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Heh, yeah, I'd figured that The Right Stuff was a little... generous... with its depictions.

The way information has been historically controlled and distributed vs. today's relative free-flowing bonanza (classified stuff aside)... I take these things for granted. The internet is arguably the most important technology of our species to date, neolithic revolution aside.

White Sands, huh? Say no more. ;)

Thank you for your time, I really appreciate it, I will definitely be perusing the literature in your red-pill thread.

Good day to you!

kleinbl00  ·  4008 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Speaking as someone who regularly attends launches at Vandenberg, don't begin to think things are open nowadays.

According to the Washington Post, there are half again as many Top Secret clearances in the United States as there are residents in Washington, DC. Just keep that in mind.