a thoughtful web.
Good ideas and conversation. No ads, no tracking.   Login or Take a Tour!
comment by kleinbl00
kleinbl00  ·  4852 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Cloning - Human cloning - why so taboo?
Cloning taboo comes from the same place as Golem, the same place as RUR, the same place as Frankenstein's Monster. We view the creation of other beings to be akin to magic - you have sex, you wait, and there's a new soul there, borne of blood, pain and miracles.

Cloning taboo speaks to the same innate feelings as the abortion debate - you're "interrupting the miracle" to coin a phrase. Many people would say "playing God."

Otto von Bismarck had a phrase: "Laws are like sausages. It's better not to see them being made." The cloning taboo strips away the miracle, strips away the blood and strips away the pain and illustrates that we are not made of stardust, we are made of water, trace minerals, lipids and starch, arranged by an information-rich organic molecule. Any sort of genetic engineering, no matter how rudimentary, essentially screams "there is no God." Through simple anthropomorphism, Dolly the Sheep becomes a Death's Head: "If a bespectacled nerd with a brogue can build a sheep, how miraculous can your existence be?"

Darwin was controversial. So was Galileo. Discontinuity is always painful and the notion that people could be designed and replicated is abhorrent to anyone with a gnostic sensibility about their origins.

Percentage of Americans who believe there is no god: 7.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/147887/americans-continue-believe...

Percentage of Americans who believe Elvis is alive and walking the earth: 8.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,60353,00.html

You get all GATTACA on these guys, you're gonna get grief.





mk  ·  4852 days ago  ·  link  ·  
I don't see it that way. I'm not religious, and have no notion that cloning strips away a miracle. But I do know that our cloning methods are still very rudimentary, and our understanding of how it works is limited. For that reason, I am against doing it at this time.

Consider this, we take an adult nucleus, and insert it into an embryonic cell. Why does it revert? We have ideas, but very little actual understanding. It was only several years ago now that we even discovered the existence of microRNAs, a fundamental nucleic acid that has ramifications that can far outstrip the effects of protein expression. I do this type of work, and it is humbling and bewildering, and not on a metaphysical level. There is a lot of shit going on in the cell that we just aren't yet privy to. But, heck, even what we do know can give us pause against cloning humans. These animals often suffer from shortened telomeres (repeating ends of their DNA), and this has been correlated to advanced declined in cloned animals. Basically we are sticking old DNA in a new embryo and running with that. Not good enough, IMHO.

But, like I said, I do foresee a point in the not-too-distance future that these obstacles will be overcome, and I will be much more receptive to the idea. I'd just hesitate to ascribe too much of the hesitation to taboo. Some of the hesitation is scientifically-minded and based on evidence.

steve  ·  4852 days ago  ·  link  ·  
>>Some of the hesitation is scientifically-minded and based on evidence.

That's what I was hoping to hear. I know I was just getting caught up in semantics. Nevertheless, I hope it is careful and methodical science that keeps us at a steady turtle pace rather than closed/narrow minded legislators yanking on the reins of science.

mk  ·  4852 days ago  ·  link  ·  
Nevertheless, I hope it is careful and methodical science that keeps us at a steady turtle pace rather than closed/narrow minded legislators yanking on the reins of science.

I share your hope, but I'm not optimistic about legislators. (see Anthropomorphic Climate Change) :)

kleinbl00  ·  4852 days ago  ·  link  ·  
The question wasn't "why do you feel this way" the question was "why do most people feel this way." Your arguments, for what it's worth, still boil down to "our knowledge is imperfect, therefore we'd best not tamper" which, while valid, are always true - we will never have perfect knowledge, therefore you are likely to always be against human cloning.

In your own way, "there's stuff we don't know" is morally and logically equivalent to "we can't play God" albeit more diffuse in scale. That "near-universal opposition to human cloning" is shared by you - and while there are clearly many positions between "God says it's bad" and "shortened telomeres are detrimental and cruel to their inheritor" they come from the same basic place: "don't mess with what we don't understand."

Note that I haven't put any of my own position into this. Note that I don't intend to. I'm simply illustrating that any drive against controversy often comes from the same animalistic place.

mk  ·  4852 days ago  ·  link  ·  
"our knowledge is imperfect, therefore we'd best not tamper"

Heck no, I think we should continue to tamper. I'm all about tampering and messing with what we don't understand. I enjoy the scientific pursuit after all. But I think we can do a lot more tampering in animals before we do it in a human. I would never suggest that we need to have perfect knowledge before we do it. (Do you seriously think I'd be so unreasonable?) But our knowledge right now is piss poor. We can easily improve on it, and we will.

kleinbl00  ·  4852 days ago  ·  link  ·  
Okay, let's look at it this way:

At what point, to you, is the "tampering with animals" aspect of things developed enough to warrant "tampering with people" and why? I'm not trying to make a point here and I'm not trying to create a right/wrong situation. I'm also not trying to paint you as unreasonable - there are a number of Ph. Ds in my family and in 10th grade I actually took the "pro human cloning" side of a debate in class (I lost, entirely on emotional grounds).

My argument is that knowledge of the situation does not aid one in finding a different philosophical position on cloning, it allows one to find a different practical position on cloning. And while your position is certainly more nuanced than, say, the Catholic Church, there's still an inherent "we shouldn't muck about with things that have souls" in the discussion.

I'm interested in having my argument disproven, however. Show me what you got.

mk  ·  4852 days ago  ·  link  ·  
I don't think I've got enough to meet your challenge. :) To be honest, this is not an issue I’ve invested much time in. I might compare it to the salmon die-off in Canada; I do find it interesting, but not personally interesting to me enough to dig out all the facts that would make me comfortable enough to assert a strong stance on the issue. -That’s in part why I mentioned that I was speaking from my personal position. I don’t want people to assume that I have studied it deeply, or that I care to convince them to take a particular stance regarding human cloning.

So, like I said, I see the human cloning issue mostly through the perspective of technological limitations that I am aware of, rather than a fundamentally ethical one. Of course, there are ethical dimensions to most issues, so I’m not saying I have no ethical underpinnings. Like you point out, the notion of ‘not ready yet’ is rooted in a notion of what is and what is not ethical.

The question that you put forward about which point is it ok to move from animal to human is an interesting one. There are established guidelines for animal testing for drugs and surgeries. I would guess that the point I would pick would fall on the conservative side of those guidelines. And yes, at some point, there would be a ‘good enough for me’. But, hell if I know enough about cloning right now to pick it. If I did, I’d be bullshitting you. I hate doing that.

I can share my perspective, but I’m not the right guy if you’re looking for some good sparing on this issue, or to be moved from your own position. I’d be happy to read if someone else wants to grab the ball, but this just isn’t my game.