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comment by bfv
bfv  ·  251 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Pubski: April 5, 2017

    Something else? There is no such thing as "white people" in the same as there is no such thing as "Asian people" or "black people." The Irish, French, Italians, Spanish, British, Russians and Iranians are all Caucasian and all have a radically different interactions with the world at large; different histories, different religions, cultures, languages. A dark skinned man from Niger, or South Africa, Haiti, South Chicago or even an Australian Aborigine are all "black" and all have radically different life paths and experiences. And if you think all Asians are the same, go to Korea and call a random person there Japanese and see what happens to you. Go to Viet Nam or Cambodia and call the locals Chinese and see what happens to you. (Note, don't do this as you will get the shit beat out of you.)

But... that's literally the point. Where that course description says

    Whiteness is a rhetorical construct that exists only in discourse, yet its concrete effects impact societies all over the globe.

it is saying whiteness is a thing that only exists in our heads, but has real effects. The same could be (and is) said about other races. The way you study things that only exist in the collective consciousness is to read what people say about them. Aside from imaginary things that affect the real being inherently interesting, looking at pernicious imaginary things closely enough to see through them is how you free yourself from them. You are (were?) active in the atheist community, the second should make sense to you.

galen has a strange talent for baiting me into making arguments I usually don't care enough to make.




OftenBen  ·  251 days ago  ·  link  ·  

How does someone 'free themselves' of something that exists only in the mind of other people?

I think of myself as a Finnish (Fennoswede) American. Not a 'White' guy. That's what everyone else decides I am.

galen  ·  251 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    How does someone 'free themselves' of something that exists only in the mind of other people?

a.) It doesn't only exist in the mind of other people. The fact that you don't consciously think of yourself as white doesn't mean you're not affected by the construction of whiteness. Here, do this and report back.

b.) Same way any social sea change happens, by educating oneself so one can educate others, and maybe eventually we improve on a societal level.

francopoli  ·  251 days ago  ·  link  ·  

That test comes off as a Scientology e-meter read.

I escaped one religion already and never want to be a part of another.

OftenBen  ·  210 days ago  ·  link  ·  

On re-read.

How do you explain to people without experience how damaging and dangerous fundamentalist religion is?

francopoli  ·  209 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Watch this movie: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Going_Clear_(film)

Watch this movie: http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/brainwashed-westboro-baptist-church/

I have a hard time on putting the thoughts into words. And my church was not that big of a cult as much as it was just a normal church; then again I did go to a Jesuit Seminary for two years.

OftenBen  ·  251 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Nope. Not interested.

I treat everyone the way I would like to be treated. I do not make special allowances for, or treat people worse because of the melanin content or lack thereof of their skin.

I am well educated in how horrible and awful white people are. What 'change' do you expect me to make?

snoodog  ·  251 days ago  ·  link  ·  

> b. Treating people equally when they start from an unequal position reproduces inequality.

I disagree, treating people unequally diminishes their achievement and hard work.

Its really hard to say that X group is equally as capable as Y group and then have a lower achievement bar for X group vs Y group. Actions are stronger than words and the action says that X group is less less capable because apparently X group needs a handicap to even compete.

galen  ·  251 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    I do not make special allowances for, or treat people worse because of the melanin content or lack thereof of their skin.

a. That's false, and I have a feeling your reluctance to take the IAT has something to do with that.

b. Treating people equally when they start from an unequal position reproduces inequality.

    What 'change' do you expect me to make?

Step 1: acknowledge that your own identity is tied up in pervasive notions of whiteness. Do your best to limit their influence on your actions, but recognize that you probably can't change them.

Step 2: accept that the moral burden of achieving equality lies on the oppressor, not the oppressed. However that's defined. Men, straight people, cis people, white people, the rich, whatever.

Step 3: do something about it.

--

Reread b. up there. Being a non-racist is not enough. The question is, are you anti-racist?

OftenBen  ·  251 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    That's false, and I have a feeling your reluctance to take the IAT has something to do with that.

"You're a racist and I'll prove it."

    b. Treating people equally when they start from an unequal position reproduces inequality.

Right, so start fighting the wealthy elite who keep poor people of all skin colors poor. If we're both drowning but I'm 5 feet closer to the surface than you are, I can't help you as much as the guy on the surface with the dive boat.

    Step 1: acknowledge that your own identity is tied up in pervasive notions of whiteness. Do your best to limit their influence on your actions, but recognize that you probably can't change them.

    Step 2: accept that the moral burden of achieving equality lies on the oppressor, not the oppressed. However that's defined. Men, straight people, cis people, white people, the rich, whatever.

    Step 3: do something about it.

Lovely words. Nothing actionable.

    The question is, are you anti-racist?

If you mean 'Do you oppose people who make judgements based on melanin content of skin?' then I am an anti-racist. If you mean 'Do you unilaterally support BLM on every single issue?' Then I am a virulent racist, because I think skin color is the least interesting thing about a person.